Thats right, remember the Cook work to rule days, it wasn't long ago and it will be very very fresh in the minds of all big brother management. They don't want that again and they are probably thinking that the Eagle negotiations will go the same way as yours go. The market favours you guys even more than it did the Cook guys, ask for what is fair and stick to it, work to rule is great, you just stop doing all the little things that you normally do "in order to get the job done" that the company doesn't pay you, or anyone else to do.
Suddenly they realise that you are actually valuable employees and that they are not actually the ones who generate the cashflow.
Go hard because inflation will eat away at whatever you get anyway and it will also give the Eagle boys something to aim for. Failing that, you can earn $125k ausi as a head long haul cabin crew for Qantas mainline if you need the cash.

I was negotiating with this guy in a previous life,he has delusions of adequiscy,bring on the real decision makers,and stay strong

Just do it...
 

All just my own opinion of course but...

I was part of a successful Air Nelson strike in the late 1990's. It followed the loss of more than a dozen pilots over two years to Crossair & BMI regional, etc - who left to fly the same SF340's!

We got significantly more pay and some slight improvements to condx, because almost all of us (like 85% +) stood together. (From memory there were a couple who jumped ship mid strike and sc*bbed, but they "left" soon after.... :p).

Guys in my experience most airline executives screw pilots every chance they get, purely to line their own pockets from performance bonuses. IMHO having watched them up close in previous office roles, they are usually F.O.S. and they know it. Heres you chance to show them the real meaning of "market forces", (the term they love to pull out every time they bugger their own staff).

IMHO Kiwi pilots traditionally get screwed because Managers think;

A - No pilot leaves NZ so they have a "captive market" (recent years have shown otherwise). And,
B - they can milk the NZ aviation mentality (bred by replusive employemnt practices in GA) that pilots are; lucky to have a job, should work for free, fly overloaded garbage around with minimal training, etc blah blah blah.

As Eagle Motors traditionally took the kiddies and left overs (no offence intended) from GA, your current "manager" is probably "well aware" of such views...

I hope that the cuurent exodus from Pacific Blue and shortages at Joke* and accross the Tasman, might mean some crew losses from Air Nelson, adding weight to your cause... Another real option (guess you heard?) QF Link / Eastern, etc want Dash 8 crew, are hiring Kiwis and pay more...

So ignore their veiled threats and BS, they know they pay peanuts (by world stds) for first rate flight crew (and you guys are believe me I've been out in the "world" for many years and seen the STD's; Air Nelson tech crew are top notch), the market is in your favour, so its time to make em pay more! :ok:

And every time you go back into negotiate ramp up the demands. Tell them conditions are changing out there daily and if they dont agree its only going to get worse.
They used to do it to you in reverse by ramping down the demands.:ok:
:D:D:D:D:=:D:D:D:D

All the best for the Air NSN guys!

ANZ/Air Nelson management need to EMBRACE (current ANZ managment w**k word) the idea that pilots are not overpaid show ponies!!

I think even if this dispute is resolved today the crewing problems with Air NSN are only just beginning, any goodwill that existed is long gone and by the numbers of lifers (training captains...etc) that are leaving....they WILL be parking aircraft in the future.....

Dunnybudgee, excelent post, right up to the bit calling J* joke*. The majority of "jokes" I have come across in Australian aviation are in QF not JQ.
If you leave those bits out of your post, you make your point eloquently and succinctly.
Anyway, how did the 12 hours off go for you Air NSN guys? Any meaningful reaction from JH? Nothing like slapping a few more strikes on him just to focus his attention.

So... What happened? Has jh become a little more approachable? When does ALPA meet with the so called powers that be at NSN again? How many more pilots have left/leaving? I heard at least half a dozen senior captains heading to Jetconnect? Do they have any training captains/instructors left? Has anyone NOT been called in on their standby days lately?

20 questions I know, but just interested.

Stick it up jh. He is an idiot.

They have had a half day of stike till lunchtime, and have been working to rule ever since. I think the working to rule, is no working on days off or whilst on leave. As I understand, crewing numbers are so tight that standbys are not enough to cover normal sickness levels, so are always using guys on their days off.
They have another day or half day of strike on the 4th April.

Stick together and you will achieve something. Personally the work to rule is better as they don't get two weeks to plan how to move passengers around the network.

All the best and stick at it.

Stick together and you will achieve something. Personally the work to rule is better as they don't get two weeks to plan how to move passengers around the network.

That's right Boys & Girls don't worry about the poor old fare paying SLF who actual pay your wages - at what ever level they may be.

Are your representatives so incompetent that the only way they can attempt to achieve an improvement in your T&C's is to piss off the people that actually do the paying??

What you don't seem to understand is that your Parent company enjoys a virtual monopoly on most of the routes that you fly and doesn't have much concern for the welfare of the passengers on those routes anyway.

As a regular customer I would not have been surprised to learn that you were always working to rule........

Anyway I've just increased my charge out rate to compensate and some of my clients are pilots, so in around about way for me, you're funding your own WTR.

Have fun.

ROTFPML!

You sound like a high class prostitute I used to know. :ok: If so, I hope all is forgiven after the minor incident with the broomstick handle.:\

Perhaps you have some suggestions as to courses of action/inaction?:confused:

Poor wind-up attempt. One out of 10.:suspect:

Sorry deadhead, I don't have any suggestions as to courses of action / inaction - don't know enough about the situation, but to add to sid - star's comment -

If your representatives cannot negotiate a successful result with your employer in todays employment market, without the need to piss off the paying customer, then perhaps you should consider giving them the chop and engaging some professional commercial negotiators.

I'm simply one of the many self employed SLF trying to earn a crust and in doing so have no alternative but to experience the uncertainity of air travel as it exists on regional routes these days and that uncertainity costs money.

No apology required for the broomstick by the way - occupational hazard when dealing with pilots.

Cheers

Indianzz

Nice cum-from-behind comeback :ok:

Don't forget, that the employer's negotiators have also failed to negotiate an agreement with the workers (yet again with this employer, first it was the engineers etc, now it is the pilot group). The current General "Manager," a well-known industrial problem child, simply packs up his toys and goes away - all without leaving the room (!) - leaving no choice but to use other methods.

Don't worry, the same is about to befall mainline Air NZ SLF as well, so you'd better go right on ramping up your fees, luv. Just remember, it takes two to tango, of all people you should have known that!

If you are concerned about your income, you could try diversification...into the B&D :ouch: market. IMHO it could do with some help. :E

Ouch
 

Indianzz,
It is not, nor has it ever been, the intention of pilots to "piss off" the travelling public. Believe it or not, we actually enjoy piloting you fullas around the country! What we don't like is being "broom-handled" by management who, because their performance bonus depends on reducing costs, are determined to stick it to the professionals who keep the aircraft in the air (read here pilots and engineers). The largest cost to any airline at the moment is not wages, but the price of Jet A1. If you really want to have a rant, get pi55ed of at OPEC. Oil only costs USD17.00 a barrel to get out of the ground, and further USD6-8 to refine. So why are we paying USD118 a barrel for Jet A1? - why, to pi55 of the passengers, of course....:oh:
The wages/salary bill is a fraction of the fuel/maintenance bill for an airline. Surely you don't want some 18yr old monkey as your pilot (paid peanuts, if you didn't get the allusion). We are the last line of defence between you and the ground, something that the public seem to remember everytime there is a poll about the most trusted profession (unlike lawyers, car salesmen or polititians). Next time you feel like flying somewhere, why not hire some young gun with a CPL in a single engine piston bug-smasher and see if you feel any safer:}.
You only have to look in the Aviation magazines to see that there is a shortage of aviation professionals in the world. An airline should remunerate their professionals in order to retain them, thus maintaining the standard of professionalism. To suggest otherwise is counter-productive to safety.
Rgds,
400R:=

Well said. :ok:

400Rulz
 

Hey believe it or not I'm on your side and support much of what you say.

I am however putting forward the customer's perspective because in the end it is we who do the paying.

I'm in no way (and I'm not backpedalling Deadhead!) arguing against your techinal professionalisim - indeed as SLF I never want to have to even think about the expertise or otherwise of the person doing the flying - on reputable airlines - it should be a given.

Also I'm not looking for a "cheap" deal. OPEC charge what they can for oil - what the market will and does pay - if Air NZ keep dropping fares in the face of increasing fuel costs and seek to make up the difference by screwing air crew - that's not my problem - its yours.

You may also be comforted to know that I have absolutely no confidence and or respect for current Air NZ management - don't know much about the management of the subsidaries but I guess it's pretty much the same.

I was actually responding to a comment by Kiwilad which had the clear implication that passengers were nothing but canon fodder and that pissing us off with delays etc caused by a work to rule will pressure your management to negotiate - I disagree because, as I noted previously, your management don't give a damn about passengers on the monopolised regional routes - we suck the kumura everytime we fly in all sorts of ways - trust me on this one.

If your representatives cant get a decent deal out management then don't fly - period - not for a day or so - stick it to them for a couple of weeks.

At least that way we all know where we stand and I bet that would get your bonus motivated executives off the backsides quicker than Deadhead's broomstick!!

Gotta go my late flight's just been called.......

Cheers

Indianzz

Air NZ management have always been in la la land. Comes from being a protected monopoly. The Govt should never have bailed the incompetent management out after the Ansett Australia shambles. The airline should have been allowed to go under then be resurrected after the inevitable clean out.
Their age old pig-headed management style is rising to the surface again. It started with the swipe at the engineers, they followed that up with a go at the Mt Cook pilots, then the ground staff fiasco. Now it seems Air Nelson overall. :ugh:

Indianzz

The problem with passengers is they are totally un aware of what is going on behind the scenes. All you want is to go on time and arrive at your destination.

Did you know that to leave on time the Air NSN pilots, even though they are not required to, get down the back and clean the cabin with the flight attendant? They do this because 20 mins is not enough time to taxi in, deplane, clean up, emplane and depart for only the FA cleans. However the company has set goals for them to depart on time so they do extra to achieve this.

Sometimes crews will cut a meal break short to achieve on time proformance.

There are hundreds of examples of crews going the extra mile to help the company achieve its goals and to get you to your destination on time. Non of which are recognised come negotiation time.

Apart from the total withdrawal of labour the rest of the industrial action is simply a refusal to work on days off and during annual leave. This is more desruptive than the strike because they do not have enough pilots to cover the roster as the company is relying on pilots coming in on their days off as they do not want to pay the extra salaries.

It is with regret that they have to disrupt travellers such as yourself but believe me it is for your (the travelling public's) good. They could have had a strike over Christmas or Easter but the incompetent negotiators, as you imply, deliberately planned strike action to be the least disruptive to the public.

One more thought.

If Air NZ continue down the path of using tax payer's dollars ( yes we all bailed this company out!) to undermine the biggest work force in this country then the flow on effect to other work sectors will see an even bigger brain drain than what we have now. Imagine Chinese flight crews getting paid half what the Kiwi's are getting to fly you. Wait a minute you don't need to imagine as they are already doing it to the FAs!

You're right - it becomes everyone's problem. Rising fares reduces demand (there are already strong indications of a recession in New Zealand) this leads to reduced passenger loads, reduced services, reduced jobs. Was it not AirNZ that made redundant 50 pilots (??) during the last recession?

Airline economics is the real to rag to riches and back to rags story. The profit margin is about 1.5c/ASK. The trick is getting the balance and reaching a win-win for everyone - consumers AND staff.

all that is beside the point!!
..we need to get pay rates right up..just like pay rates across the board in this country.
Lets say 50K start salary for a turbine FO minimum base rate. If you can't afford that as a company..put up your prices.

...and promptly go out of business.

What planet are you living on?