...Unless it's done the AIPA way it can't be done at all.

I must remember to do things the AIPA way,
I must remember to do things the AIPA way,
I must remember to do things the AIPA way,
I must remember to do things the AIPA way,

There - I feel much better now. NOT:D

Genex,

It's far from a collective venting of AIPA's spleen. There's 2500+ members of AIPA and less than a handfull have vented.

Led,

That last post was not much better than TL's.

Nuf.

I'm willing to bet that a majority of the members of AIPA don't even know this site exists. Fewer still would read it regularly, and only a handful would post here.

Representative? I think not.

To take a few unnecessary, unhelpful and insulting comments from some of the posters here and extrapolate that to represent the views of the members of AIPA is drawing a long bow indeed.

Hey MPPGF,

Is this the same bloke who has just pulled all his economics theory and other insights into world affairs off the internal website (used to attempt to scare people into thinking the sky was falling and we should vote yes)?

Must be a big set of balls he has. I would want him in front of me in the trenches just so I could shoot him in the face as he turned to run.

What a disgrace!

Thanks to the 58% who sold out their mates as well as the next crop of FOs. Jake you are right. That guy is unbelievable!!!!.

Dm

Douglas (et al).....

Continuing in this theme is eroding whatever goodwill there might have been between AIPA and Jetstar pilots. The previous page has a post with a monkey photo on it which may well go down in history as the defining moment at which an permanent and impassable abyss opened up between the Qantas pilot groups. It is probably way to late to undo the damage now but someone from your side of the fence could try.

As I see it, at any time in the future where the idea of GOAL or a single pilot union or any initiative at all from AIPA comes up....these recent post EBA posts....and THAT photo....will damn any hope of serious discussion and credibility. Someone's spleen just cost the whole pilot group heaps over the long term. And yet people like you somehow blame 58% of the Jetstar pilots.

"But your Honour...I had to beat her. If she hadn't misbehaved I wouldn't so it's her fault. She asked for it"

Sherm,

If your life is determined by posts on this website, it must be a beauty!

Take the blue one, it makes you HAPPY, not HORNY.

:)

Jake

Because I'm a nice guy I will assume that you aren't in fact an infantile pampered fool, in a gene pool full of such examples....and instead believe that you were having a good natured go at me in the frank and friendly manner charactersistic of well educated gentlemen who have travelled widely and seen the world through all sorts of perspectives. Hope I'm right.

I have a great life. No pills....just fun.Prune is but a flyspeck on the wallpaper...but when I see venom and spleen coming from the mouths of those who days ago wanted to be best friends to everyone....I simply had to write something. I could as they say....do no less.

You had a chance to add your objections to THAT photo and you, by your silence instead assented to it. You should be ashamed.

Long bow Sherm.

Why do people always assume silence to be tacit approval? Why not assume that it is just choosing to ignore an ill thought post? I feel no need to comment because I know how stupid it is (there, I've commented, feel better).

The pilots in this country will be the losers in the current situation because they are poorly led. On one side is a megalomaniac who listens only to hired help and the voices in his head and on the other are two hs beens who consistently show that they are prepared to sign anything to attempt to remain relevant and are trying to see in retirement.

It will require generational change for anything to advance. But by then it may be too late.

P.S. Don't assume the intelligence level of the fellow traveller is anything but average. You will be dissappointed. (Think Sentinel, Budplan, etc. etc.):ok:

Sherm, as far as I am aware, Dougas Mcdonell is a Jetstar pilot. I think you will also find that the monkey photo, poor taste that it is, is actually based around the theme of peanuts.

One photo posted by one member of AIPA (and how do we even know that for sure?) does not mean AIPA's agenda is now revealed.

It is Idiocy at its finest to label an organisation of 2500 people (made up IMHO of at least 2400 thoroughly decent and professional individuals) because 1 frustrated naughty boy posts 1 photo of a monkey. Thin skin perhaps.

For the record, I think Led is a goose, but I don't look at my mates (or for that matter those I don't know) from Jetstar any differently since reading his crap. Can I ask the same in return for the Mainline pilots?

The fact is that the Jetstar guys DID stand up for themselves in this second vote.

Remove the AWA voters (because, who in their right mind would not vote to get off the AWA?) and the result was a bigger NO vote than before. A hollow victory perhaps, but one that speaks volumes to me.

WELL DONE JETSTAR PILOTS :D :D :D

I think you have spoken loud and clear, but it is still a shame that Genex and his buddys will think this is a overwhelming approval of this EBA, rather then seeing it as a minority liking the EBA, and another minority wanting to get job security. In this case 2 minorities make a majority.

The management (and Oldmeadow) would not allow the AWA pilots to vote the first time because they had every intention of welshing on their very thin promise to get them off AWA's or at least hire more DEC on individual contracts.

Now, to get the vote through they have made this very cynical move, I can't believe that Led and his mates can't see it for what it is, but such is life.

I am comfortable that the majority of J* pilots know exactly what happened here.

I am very comfortable that the majority of AIPA pilots, and more importantly the AIPA President and Committee know exactly what happened here.

Now the real question. Can anyone state categorically that it is legal for those not covered by an EBA to vote for a replacement of it?

Because, whilst I accept that the AWA pilots were voting for EBA 4 which they would be part of, they were also (and this is important) voting to replace EBA 3, which they WERE NOT covered by. := :=

Me thinks there might be a problem here! Anyone care to grieve this?

Disgrace
 

What a disgrace,

How could a group of professionals act in such a stupid fashion?
We let Oldmeadow spin and lies cloud what should have been an easy decision.Unity of group pilots that the company clearly wanted to stop.

That the few "usual suspects" continue to in fight saddens me.We look extremely foolish to the outsider.

Australian pilots have more of a chip on their shoulders than any pilot body in the world.
All the old 89 bull****, AIPA,AFAP did this, JPC did that,.Tit for tat.Tosh.

Smart people learn from the mistakes of the past and keep stock of what the real issues are.We let ourselves get played off between each other.

A fantastic win for the Qantas consultants.Sadly I expected it.
Pilots are indeed stupid.The precedent has been set......:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Speeedy....have no idea on the legality of the AWA people voting, tho of course would support their moral right to get onto an EBA should they choose. I am sure if they had all voted NO AIPA would have accepted their moral right to vote!

But as for the NO vote.....mate of mine who works inside JQ said (and I think he'd know) that there were 91 added people eligible to vote and the YES vote went up by 94, the NO vote declined by 11. Balance is 8 additional abstainers. Overall 43 abstained. Even if they'd all (the abstainers) voted NO, the EBA would still have passed, 53% to 47%.

Anyway...I'm sure the figures will go public soon and someone can check this.

Jake,


The point of my previous post was that if you are a Jetstar pilot with access to the webgroup than you should really publish your concerns and thoughts on that forum and not here in a spineless fashion.Try standing behind what you say if you feel so strongly about it.

Sorry about the double post.

Some observations from someone not involved in the airline industry in Australia:

The dogs of free market competition have finally been released upon the airline industry in Australia. The issues being debated here are exactly the same as the issues being debated in the US, Canada and Europe. It is not a debate about QF and Jetstar. The industry in Australia is a microcosm of the industry worldwide.

Qantas pilots would have nothing to fear if they were providing their employer with true value for money. Do you think pilots at SWA are constantly jumping at shadows?

The forces at play for the labor base employed by an incumbent carrier are vastly different from the forces at play for those employed by a startup carrier. Note that I did NOT refer to LCC.

Quite simply, the conditions of service enjoyed by the staff at an established carrier such as QF are the result of half a century of industrial fat gathering around the edges, something that does not hobble a startup. Only the ignorant would expect the conditions of service at a startup carrier to be aligned with those of a legacy carrier.

Jetstar provides Qantas with a mechanism for lowering labor costs and changing customer expectations that cannot be achieved in the mainline carrier due to rigid but often outdated beliefs and work practices.

The reality is that Jetstar provides a buffer to QF that permits the overblown cost structures to continue while carriers such as Thai, Emirates and Virgin Blue nip at their heals. This practice is very common among legacy carriers.

Sherm,

AIPA posted some figures which said:

The Yes votes increased by 114.
The No vote increased by 8.
Total AWA pilots = 134.

91% voted (same % as last vote).

We'll see which numbers are right.

As for the legalities. I don't think it is sour grapes, it was obvious before the vote that the AWA voters were an "interesting" addition.

If the Majority of people covered by EBA3 do not wish it to be replaced by the new one, why is their opinion not of primary importance? That is the fundamental point.

Essentially this vote has allowed future pilots 'yet to be covered' to vote, why not get 1000 GA guys to vote as they may be covered by that EBA one day.

I just think it has a certain smell to it, and requires an answer.

For those who are happy with this voting irregularity, I have one question: "Why weren't the AWA pilots voting the first time?"

Reading between the lines, what is evidently true, given the recent vote, is that Jetstar provides Qantas with a mechanism to undercut ML guys and sell themselves rediculously and selfishly short of the work practices ie, pay and conditions that mainline, and the entire airline industry have managed to acheive. Thus setting an all time low benchmark on pay and conditions!!!. All this whilst looking down the barrell of a pilot shortage and for 5 years!!!!!

Good on ya to those guys that voted NO, regardless the representation you choose. I feel for you having to sit (for what will now be rediculous TOD's at Sh*thouse pay rates) next to the clowns that voted YES. Enjoy the long sectors, days away and peanuts.

2 reasons, there probably isnt 1000 guys left in GA, and secondly, they wouldnt want to take the pay cut :)

Maybe all the mainline guys who have the ability to go to J* via the MOU should have been given a vote as well?