RAAF get the nod to shoot down lighties
 

An RAAF F/A-18 Hornet buzzed central Sydney as authorities warned lethal force could be used against errant aircraft during the APEC summit.

Brigadier Andrew Smith, speaking to reporters in a restricted area at Walsh Bay, said civilian pilots should be aware they would need a permit to enter the temporarily restricted airspace over Sydney during the September 2-9 summit.

As the Hornet flew a low-level familiarisation pass over the Sydney Harbour Bridge, Brigadier Smith warned that any pilots entering the area without a permit ran the risk of being shot down.

"That would be an absolute last resort," Brigadier Smith said.

"What is more likely to occur is we'll find a pilot who hasn't been reading his mail ... and we'll remind him of his civil aviation obligations in the nicest possible way."

The restricted airspace zone will encompass a 45 nautical mile radius around Sydney Airport during the summit, which will climax with a meeting of world leaders on September 8 and 9.

In the restricted wharf area, Australian Defence Force (ADF) troops put on a display of searching cars for hidden bombs while wetsuited navy clearance divers checked the surrounding water.

Authorities signed a memorandum of understanding which formalised the sharing of security operations between NSW Police and the ADF.

"The ADF, under the MoU, don't have a role as an aggressor..." Mr Campbell said.


Be a real shame if the first air-to-air kill by a RAAF pilot since - what, the Korean War??? - turned out to be poor old Joe Lighty in his C140 or some nerd from the Aero Club or D.S. in his robbo!!!!!!!!

Does the knuck still get a silhouette for that?

Scotty, they'll have to do a lot better than the attempt to shoot down the Auster over Sydney many years ago. 'Bout all they got to paint on the side that time was perhaps a red face. :cool:



For those too young to know or remember:

The Aussie story!! :}

The Facts - according to the RAN!! (pdf file)

I vaguely remember the "incident" - I must be old!! :{

Tail Wheel
Dunnunda Mod Bod!

The same happened in the UK some forty years ago. The Fleet Air Arm did the job on that occasion as well.

The NOTAM means business...all the airspace out to 200nm..wow!

So what happens to all the flight schools operating out of Bankstown, Hox and Camden?

Put GW Bush In The Cage - Not The City Of Sydney

yer Johnny's at it again, nothing like a bit of scaremongering in the lead up to a federal election.

Times have changed.

The facts are that Australia is doing nothing more than any other country would do, or would be expected to do, in similar circumstances of being host to twenty one World leaders.

Get over it, get used to it!

Fifty years ago the then PM, Sir Robert Menzies put the Army on the Australian wharves, in a non aggressive role. I have a recollection there are constitutional reasons that the Australian ADF can not be deployed within Australia, in an aggressive role?

I wouldn't worry too much. :mad:
If I am correct the last time the RAAF were tasked with shooting down a lighty, (Auster, no pilot onboard either) they couldn't get it.::eek:
It ended up running out of fuel. :D:DThe auster that is!
I have no more faith in them today.:oh::oh:

Dangerous Times..Dangerous people
 

What right in Gods name have these people putting thousands and thousands of good Australians at peril for some bloody wank politicians...

what happens when billy blowfly flys throught the restricted area...they shoot a missile...it misses the target...it goes straight into a kindergarten school...

who do these people think they are...they must be voted OUT....probably the same people who brought you the ASIC card fiasco.

SEND APEC somewhere else...may I suggest Mars!

You might have had a chance Jonny Jackboot but this will seal it for the Libs when you pissoff 3 million voters in one foul hit.

I think they'll spot the difference between an out-of-control, unresponsive airliner and an off-track 172.

This was done in 2005(?) in Melbourne for the Commonwealth games opening and closing ceremonies where even an errant C172 could have done a a lot of harm.

I watched al the precautions being taken in great detail, since I live where most of the guys were "based" for that event.

I would guess that if the F18's didn't get you, the Navy would.

Well, it's nice to know that the RAAF have been cleared for the use of force in advance IF it is required. It's better than having authorities watch a small twin loaded with fertiliser plummeting towards the ground at 250kts while they try to obtain clearance and ideas on how to stop it.

And should a missile or a few rounds just happen to go astray in the process and kill a few hundred innocent people on the ground, I should think Zhaadum will be delighted. Nothing Australia hasn't deserved, right?

Seem to remember a discussion at the Prime Minister's Cabinet Security Committee some years back - I think it was about the CHOGM Conference on the Sunshine Coast.

Lot's of back and forward talk about exclusion zones, maintaining CAPs, and who could legally authorise the shooting down of civilian aircraft over Australian territory.

Couple of points came from that.

Government realised that the laws didn't allow the Australian Defence Forces to operate live military engagements in Australia - let alone shoot - something to do with Constitution, and external powers, etc. The government had to chage the law to allow the military to act on that and subsequent occassions.

The other interesting debate centred around 'command and control', and collateral damage.

The argument went that if an F18 tried to shoot down a C172 and missed, the trajectory of the missile would be downwards, and might actually cause more damage on the ground at impact than the so-called terrorist' in the C172 could have managed.

Army argued that it would be better to have soldiers with shoulder launched surface to air missiles used - the argument being that if the SAM missed, it would fall [relatively] harmlessly to earth.

Air Force then argued that the Army command and control lines would preclude rapid response - i.e., soldier on the ground cannot act unilaterally - needs to have a line of authorisation up the chain of command, and back down again [even if there were pre-determined rules of engagement] - and it might take valuable minutes [or longer] to get an authorisation to fire.

Air Force argued that in the case of the F18 option, the pilot was a 'trained officer in Her Majesty's service' who had completed substantial training in the etiquette of instant decision making, and could be trusted to act immediately and correctly on pre-existing rules of engagement.

It was interesting to note, though, that Air Force decided against a full time CAP, and opted to 'scramble' an F18 from forward base Amberley if an 'incursion' occured - requiring the NOTAMing of a vast swathe of airspace as 'restricted' to allow enough time for the jet to get on station!

At least you guys can get an armed response into the air.

Tell you what, they should have scheduled the conference in Blenheim. The town has a lot going for it.

1. Two airfields, one military :rolleyes:
2. Most overseas visitors have never heard of the place
3. Produces some great wines, so a lot of visitors would be passed caring
4. They can scramble 7 Fokker Dr1s with handguns very quickly from Omaka - when they can find the 'live' ammo :E Indominable.

And they have the best foam-laying team in NZ :D

Incoming...

Le Vieux

Zhaduum,

Are you saying that Innocent people "Deserved" to die?

Quite frankly that type of attitude really scares me.

TBT

I wonder how the Brigadier would handle a squadron of powered 'chutes flown by the kind of wombats normally on surfboards that attempt to get in the way of US Navy ships visiting Sydney.Maybe it wouldn't be necessary to shoot at them,just a fast pass or two and let wake turbulence do the job.

Wellconcerned

All interesting but I can assure that the RAAF had an F18 on CAP whenever all of the heads (and the Queen) were congregated at CHOGM on the Sunshine Coast in 2002 including up to late at night.

When Bush can to Canberra a few years ago - they put an F18 up on CAP at that time as well as putting in a navy Seaking to follow the motorcade.

Cheers

:ok:

Thanks Barkly 1922.

My recollection in relation to CHOGM was that CAF told the PM that RAAF would have difficulty in maintaining CAP H24 - hence the need for a primary exclusion zone [45NM as I recall] - and a larger alert zone [around 200NM as I recall].

I have no doubt that your recollection of what actually ensued is correct.

Interestingly, the security advisors were having kittens at the fact that the two primary conference hotels were so close to the short final approach paths for either end of the runway at MC. There was simply no way to guarantee that an RPT operator or VIP flight wouldn't 'speer in' to one of the hotels - never mind the odd 'stray' C172.

Anyway, the key point was that there was considerable debate about authorising any Defence arm to 'act in anger' within Australian landmass airspace. Several laws had to be amended. What a pity we live in times such as these that require such measures.

Believe me I know this well. I was a member of the Taskforce - based on the Sunshine Coast from November 2001 immediately following the election and because of aviation background, involved with government discussions and consultations with industry.

You are right about runways and resorts - one of the first things I did was to get a flight in a C172 around the circuit. I lived in the Atlantis Apartments directly opposite Maroochy from November 2001 to March 2002.

I hated it. :ok:

Doesn't Defence Aid to the Civil Power cover this kind of stuff?
Parliament House link

Pass-a-frozo

Affirm.

:8

Zhaadum:

Your comment has to be the most disgraceful I have ever read on Pprune.

No one deserved 9/11.

I'm hoping your comment was made due to a temporary lack of filtration between your brain and the keyboard and that you may as yet go back and Edit your post.

They should do move APEC out to Lord Howe Island.

1. It's 400nm from land.
2. They could hire out the whole island (400 or so people there at a time anyhow)
3. It'd be hard to sneak up on.
4. Makes no impact to Sydney siders wanting to go about their normal business.
5. Cost a whole heap less (even after paying off the resorts, being winter prices)
6. Show off one of our heritage listed sites.
7. No need to move our animals from the zoo for some stupid private viewing. There are goats on LHI.

Makes sense to me.

I suggest WOOMERA:}

Big airstrip, no big city problems, no protestors or easy to keep em out, plenty of history......and no accomodation problems!

Gotta be a winner:E

J:ok:

I would think one of the reasons someone from 44wg wouldn't like APEC is that they might actually have to do a whole 8 hour shift and maybe even work past 9pm, though to get those aco wings!!!!!:}

Woomera: I don't think old ELDO's has enough rooms!!

Just to go back to the Auster shoot down for a mo...the pilot of the Meteor, Sqd Leader Max Holdsworth (at the time of the shootdown, retired Wingco) was an Examiner of Airmen in DCA Sydney office until he finally retired...he gave me my Instructors rating. We used to rag him occassionally..."Hey Max...heard you weapon jammed?" He was a grumpy old cuss but you'd get a smile and a gruff response.

A family friend was a squadron mate of Max's on 75 Squadron at Milne Bay flying P40s in 1942/3...he reckons Max was a grumpy old coot even when he was 22:}

so if they shoot something down it would be for protection.... but I wonder how all the ppl on the ground underneath it would feel about being protected? :D

I 'ope your Meester Smith does not fly his plane through ze airspace as he go to Lord Howe Island or somehwere. It would be very big loss if he was shoot in ze air.

I believe from the news reports he is currently stuck in Kazakhstan

Max Holdsworth:} what an agrogant useless examiner he was. If he didn't feel like working he would cancel your test at the drop of a hat or fail you before you got airborne.:yuk:
He had an interesting career, also landed a vampire (from memory) wheels up or was it a touch and go.:confused:

I notice free speech is alive and well on PPRUNE...NOT! My post has been deleted.

TBT and others,

I stand by my last comments AMERICA (GOVT) deserved 9/11.

I did not mean the citizens or innocents deserved it. That remains a horror beyond description.

I just object to OZ following the US blindly on EVERYTHING!

This security wank is just an obsene overeaction.

Z.:ok:

RFG: Zhaadum:


Quote:
America deserved 9/11
Your comment has to be the most disgraceful I have ever read on Pprune.

This is a long way from being the most disgraceful comment ever on PPrune. There are a lot of of people out there, mostly silent, who hold similar beliefs. Are they raving, bomb-making, anti-western lunatics? Unlikely. Maybe they understand that for a country to repeatedly meddle in events occuring on the far side of the globe for no other reason than out of pure self interest, there will one day be a price to pay. Is it terrible that 2500+ Americans died on Sept 11? Yes. Does it rate in historical terms relative to the pain and suffering caused by American intervention in various political events and conflicts throughout the world? Not even close. Iraq version 2.0 has far surpassed it in further US casualities alone not to mention the quarter million plus Iraqi civillians who have died as a result. Perhaps Zhaadum didin't get the point across well but possibly the US had it coming rather than deserved it?
The Comet.

Is it just me, or do others think it is strange that "intelligence" identifies political or state leaders as terrorist targets? OK the various individuals are targets of all sorts of groups and individuals, but surely terrorist targets as we know them are large groups of Joe Public?

The world will keep spinning without a dozen or two of the head honchos just fine I suspect. Killing them off won't terrorize anybody except potential big cheese applicants.

HOWEVER, Great Wall of Sydney + closed subway stations = big trap for large numbers of people.

Oi Jabawocky, do you mind......... :=

Woomera is now at peace....... :}

Comet:

The USA is not the only country to 'meddle' as you call it.

Saddam meddled, Iran has for some time 'meddled', as once did the Soviets and others.

Zhaadum's comments ARE disgraceful and out of line. Maybe as you suggested, Zhaadum has difficulty with expression. There is always the 'Edit' button he/she can use.

Civilians, Children - No one 'Deserves' it. No one 'has it coming'. It doesn't matter whether they are Americans or Iraqis. Think about it......

America may not be perfect, America has made a lot of dumb moves but I'm sure glad they are prepared to do the dirty work that a lot of countries don't have the balls to do. The world is full of Saddam/Ahmadinejads/Bin-Laden/Kim Jong-il/(insert name here) types that would still try and hold the world to ransom regardless of whether the USA 'meddled' or not. Think about it.....

Comet; imagine the world today with a non-interventionist USA - just like they were pre-WWII when the likes of Hitler/Mussolini/Togo were allowed to gain strength.

No more comments from me; The thread has strayed off topic. Let's get back to interesting subjects like Flying. :ok:

Yes it has........... :=

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