Aircraft, go and buy today's AUSTRALIAN

Ahh I wouldn't be so quick on that one Aircraft. I have no inside information however it would not be beyond the realms of possibility that the mining companies are subsidising the extra costs.

Skippers situation is a classic example of supply and demand that you often seem to crap on about on these forums. At the current labour price there ain't enough people, so therefore the price needs to increase to stimulate the supply.

On saying that I would be suprised if it happened though :}

The nature of this industry is NO PILOTS= NO INDUSTRY!!

I know you're a troll aircraft, but there's no need ot be a stupid one!!

Aircraft,

75K for a metro isn't that much considering super is included in that total. Most companies around add super as an extra on top of the quoted salary. Not Skippers.

Winning by Losing
 

Wikipedia.org

Winning by Losing
Conclusively proven. There appears to be a serious mental defect located somewhere between the keyboard and the chair.

Just perused a friends new AWA.

In my opinion, not the great gift it would appear, many extra conditions that i personally would not have accepted, including 3 months notice of resignation or pay the organisation in lieu, in addition to paying out ones bond .

Perhaps you guys should have this one read very carefully by an IR lawyer or Union rep.

Good luck.

Yesssssss, I heard some new AWAs were sent out, and the amounts touted were $75k for a metro and between 90k-104k for the braz and dash 8s.

Close the gate, the horse has bolted!

I think you will also find that the rates of salary quoted are inclusive of the 9% superannuation.
eg: approx 68k plus super = 75k for the Metro.

Oh well, at least they have raised the salaries which is a good start. Will be interesting to see what the other charter companies on the field do.

It will be interesting to see how many actually sign this AWA in its present form.

It is very positive that the company is offering staff a higher salary, it is a move that will probably ensure their survival in this looming "pilot shortage", well done on that front.

Hopefully they will be willing to negotiate the finer details with their staff, both parties will probably have a win ( I would imagine most will be happy with the money offered, just not some of the conditions that have been presented ).

Perhaps a Pilot/Management meeting over a couple of beers on friday arvo could abate concerns of both parties.

What would be the outcome, if a majority of the Pilots asked a Union to represent them in this ( NJS Pilots are seeing positive action and sustainable change on the way ).

Aircraft, age 23



Says it all I think - get some life experience son and then we may take you seriously.

I have now seen the relevant job ad in the Australian. For those that haven't, Skippers are offering "remuneration rates commencing at $95K for Dash 8 and Brasilia captains and $75K for Metro". The ad also states that these salaries are dependent on experience and qualifications (so whether that means the quoted figures are the minimum or the maximum is unclear).

My earlier post regarding salaries of this magnitude being impossible was based on the job having "conventional" terms and conditions.

But for salaries like this, I think you will find that the offer contains some decidedly unconventional terms and conditions!

Some supporting evidence for my earlier post is contained in this quote from the recent Geoffrey Thomas article that was posted to another thread by freddyKrueger:

Sure, the mining industry has the money to fund contracts that could, by themselves, pay these kinds of salaries, but why would some mining company enter into such a contract with an operator that runs clapped out old turboprops? If the contract is for traditional FIFO, they could get a different operator, more cheaply, but for the same level of safety.

Mining companies are finding it harder to attract their own employees in the current boom. One way to attract them is via added safety measures that apply to the FIFO flights. Pilot salaries are not visible to the workers but the interiors and exteriors of the clapped out old turboprops are. If you were a mining company wouldn't you rather be spending the extra money on visible safety features?

Well done aircraft! You can start by getting these mining companies to stop flying around 35 year old PA31s/C402s and put their employees into a nice new single engine turbine!!! Why hasn't anyone else thought of that? :hmm::ugh:
If I'm correct, some of those "clapped out turboprops" that are flown by Network in fact belong to some of their mining clients. It isn't like all the jet aircraft being flown around WA are spring chickens. I'm not going to get into how many times I've seen interior and exterior refurbishments on the turboprop fleet based in Perth over the past four years. :rolleyes:

Yep, winning by losing, aircraft.

here's an additional thought,

From my memory i believe most of the FIFO also required certain experience levels of crews as well....

I'm sure now that the experience levels have dropped far below what was or is required... i wonder if these companies are aware of the severe drop in crew experience...? (let alone age and conditions of aircraft)

just another couple of cents tossed in...:}

Chr!st!

Here we go again.

OK, we'll offer you a pay rise but only because we care....

and by the way, just leave your first born on the chair on the way out.

While companys continue to play the "what are you going to offer us in return" game, the smart players, (mind you haven't seen too many so far), will pinch what is left of their drivers by offering real incentives, without the strings.

Every 2 or 3 years we go cap in hand to these clowns and literally beg for a CPI wage rise! We have never even come close to that small and obvious right, without sacrificing conditions. 10 years of one sided "negotiations" has led us to the place we are today. Crap wages and crap conditions. For that very reason, suitably qualified pilots are becoming difficult to attract, and even more difficult to keep.

Yet these blokes (management types) still try to bung it on!!!

Well all I can say is, keep up the brinkmanship, the stall tactics, and all the strings attached, and your business will pay the price.

aircraft,

The majority of mining companies conduct extensive audits of operators. These audits address everything from the asthetics of the aircraft to the operating culture among the crew. I can think of one lucrative northern Australian contract in particular; The contract was awarded to a company with older aircraft (and less comfortable). Said operator however, had a wealth of experience in its ranks and a sound operational safety culture, which is usually bred out of a motivated, satisfied workforce. All offers on the table were similarly quoted, so its safe to assume the decision wasn't price driven.

What am I getting at?
"for the same level of safety" bollocks. Operational safety, and since we are talking about pilots here I am referring to everything from training to CRM, is directly affected by engagement, experience and training. Both of these are negatively impacted when conditions are below industry climate average (as the case has been with Skippers recently). Simply put, the experience in a company that cuts corners, is drained, training is abreviated and a cowboy operating culture can squeeze its way in.

To assume the mining companies don't give a damn is foolish. One audit, once incident is all it takes.

Braz @ Jundee....? :} you'd like to think so :ugh:

p.s from what i hear the audit company a lot of the mines use aren't worth two... speaking to some people who have delt with them they don't look under to many rocks when they visit...:rolleyes:
any how....!
SP

I have rung around to settle my curiosity on this offer from Skippers (lack thereof) and have come to the conclusion that it is just a polished turd!

A pretty poor attempt to keep pilots. They have only offered this ‘deal’ because they are down to 5 Bras Capts for 6 planes and 3 Metro Capts for 6 planes (from the same source). All those who resigned are still leaving! The clients are pissed.

95k for the Dash and Bras is false advertising.

95k minus 9% Super = 86.45k
86.45k minus 3 months notice (say 2, 1 month is standard) 14.41k = 72.04k
72k. Isn’t that close to what the Dash guys are on anyway?
72.04k minus up to 25k bond (and you are bonded even if your type rated!!!) = 47.04

Now for $47,000 you get to be a Capt on a Dash or Bras working max duty in a company with low morale with the normal bonds and notice applied. Great work of art this document is.

I can’t believe I’m about to do this but I agree with aircraft on this

But he/she didn’t mention this from the same article

Such management arrogance is astounding in the current climate. People will still vote with their feet.

Assuming Stick Pusher you are referring to Harts, i would suggest you have not dealt with them directly.

I have been personally ( as the CP/DCP ) audited three times by Harts, these guys are very good at what they do, their audits are exceptionally thorough and pick up on issues i thought would be beyond their abilities for a two or three day audit.

IMHO BHP and the like are spending their money very wisely with Harts as their aviation representatives.

Erin and others.
If it's been mentioned before please forgive me as I have not read every post on this thread.Erin you mentioned the clients being pissed in a previous post.Surely making the guy's at the top of the mining tree aware personally why flights are getting canned would have to make a difference.The amounts of money involved for them when a flight cannot operate and they can't bring in a shift change must be staggering. I can't believe they would stand for this sort of mismanagement when they pay their staff the money they do to ensure that they don;t have these sorts of problems.
Anyway, good luck to you guy's at Skippers !:ok:

KRUSTY 34:

Actually, that would be zero "smart players", going on your definition. Leaving aside the question of how you would know what the "smart players" are doing when there aren't any, what does it tell you - that, according to your definition, there aren't any "smart players"?

Err, where did you get the idea that this is a right? This may come as an awful shock, but we have no such right.

If more people realised this there would be less rancour over terms and conditions. And if they also understood the true nature of commercial aviation the level of rancour would be approaching zero!

Just short of the $100K........
 

SKIPPERS - DASH / BRASILIA / METRO CAPTAINS

Skippers are currently seeking suitably experienced Dash 8, Brasilia & Metro Captains to fill vacant positions based in Perth.

Remuneration rates commencing at $95k+ for D8 & EMB and $75K+ for M23 fleets are offered based on experience and qualifications. Endorsed applicants are preferred, however applicants possessing multi-crew experience on similar types will also be considered.

Slowly but surely..............

This is being discussed on the skippers thread starting post #162.

The nature of commercial aviation is that it is a BUSINESS. One vital part of managing a business is to ensure you attract and retain enough qualified staff to operate that business.

If skippers is at the point where it has less crews than aircraft, it has failed in this basic management task.

Tell me aircraft:- as you, at the grand old age of 23, apparently have a better grasp of the fundementals of aviation than those of us who've been involved for decades, what do YOU think skippers should do to ensure it's aircraft keep flying and it doesn't lose its mining contracts?

give all their pilots a pay rise - even a 12 yo can come up with that answer :p

the aviation industry is CRAP!!!!!
Why? Well it is because the people involved in it (i am talking about the pilots) actually have a passion for flying. what does this mean? it means that they are willing to do anything to do the job they love. companies such as skippers know this and they exploit it.

i have mates in other industries earning 70K in their first jobs with company cars and loads of other benifits such as company charge cards, all expences paid trips for them and their partners once tarkets have been made, etc.

who are we kidding, we are never going to get the respect, pay and conditions that we deserve. especially when you have little fresh cpl pilots that pay to sit in the right hand seat instead of going bush to get the experience they need to progress through their career.

my 2 cents worth.

LemeL

:= dont stereotype - some of those cpls in the right hand seat do have time and have gone north, but still were required to pay to sit in the right hand seat

Only partly true. The majority see it as an essential step towards reaching the perceived holy grail of an airline job. They also realise that it is only a temporary position and will endure the cr@p pay/conditions that go with it.

The problem for these operators is that the supply of willing candidates is fast running out.:E

Towering Q

Simply, erudite and (unfortunately) correct.

EOFS
Cheers
galdian

Mickster, at the time of last post Network hadn't but since then they have followed suit only on a slightly smaller scale. Shed Dog, either you have a fantastically well placed source at Network or your expereince gazing into the crystal ball really came through because you were spot on but about 5 days ahead of it actually coming to life. ;)

"I think Lemel was referring to the Skippers cadet program, paid for by their parents and cheeky as ever! "

Brazdriver, that is correct.

Towering Q, I understand what you are saying and it is true. However it still happens even when you get to that airline job! look at jet star. the pay and conditions there are not by any means fantastic. like i said, airlines will exploit the fact that pilots have a true passion for their jobs. the only way this will change is if there is a huge shortage. in my opinion, that huge shortage will never come (the shortage we are experiencing is for experienced drivers, we do however have plenty of low hour pilots floating around).

i hope for all of our sakes that i am wrong!

LemeL:ok:

That AWA appears to be a Rope-a-dope, from conversations I've had and overheard with these pilots, I do not think too many are going to sign it in its present form.

Cadet programs do not appear to offer very good outcomes, the logging of ICUS is a huge irregularity that will sooner or later come under some serious scrutiny from CASA ( watch this space ), in much the same way as the intent of the RPT legislation was closely looked at in the past and ruled upon, big changes followed. CPL holders logging ICUS in an above 5700kg pressurised turbine whilst on Charter or RPT. This will add to the woes of this level of the industry.

Gidday Jet A. Can you explain to me how a cadet or otherwise can log ICUS on line routine flights with a normal line Captain, when only 1 pilot can be nominated as PIC?

For example (as you know), I'm not a training captain. So, as far as I know when an FO flies with me he/she logs all his/her time as FO and 50% goes towards his/her total aeronautical experience or whatever. He or she is NOT the PIC (under supervision or otherwise). He or she is just the pilot manipulating the controls on his or her sector with the PIC (me) making the final decisions as to the disposition of the flight.

The only ICUS I have ever logged was during my upgrade training when under the supervision of my Training Captain. Well, that's the way it works at Qantaslink.

Hugh Jarse

Mate, this has been debated to death, but it is perfectly legal for a cadet to log ICUS under normal ops if:

1. They hold the minimum of a CPL.
2. They have a command endorsement on type.
3. The company authorises FO’s including cadets to log ICUS. This will usually be spelt out in the company ops manual.
4. The company states that all line captains are authorises to supervise FO’s logging ICUS when the FO’s the pilot flying. This will usually be spelt out as in 3.

Not all companies will have this in place but in those that do it is done on a regular basis. It is widely done in airlines like QF mainline that employ large numbers of cadets. It is obvious why they do do it, because if they didn’t the cadets would never qualify for an ATPL and hence a command. It must also be pointed out that ICUS isn’t PIC. Only one pilot can log PIC and that is the captain.

All this is possible through CAR 5.40. It is a common rule throughout the world in various countries aviation regulations. It was developed by ICAO for airlines so they could employ cadets and low time pilots that under normal circumstances would never qualify for an ATPL due to lack of command hours. ICUS is also known as P1US.

Can someone please start a dedicated thread to this subject and not keep bringing this up on a multitude of others threads. Driving me crazy seeing and hearing the same stuff on totally non-related threads.

404, start it then finish it cause you seem to have the patience to see the argument through. For that reason I can't start it. It's drive me nuts!! :ugh:

Won't need to debate this issue for much longer ( watch this space ).

404 - I think the issue is that some co-pilots(and not cadets either) have been logging ICUS regardless of requirements of items 3 & 4 that you list. Basically just trying to pad command hours I think!

slice

In which case the CP should pick it up when he/she verifies the log book entries a true representation of the FO’s hours. I personally haven’t seen any company, particularly airlines that take a candidate’s hours and log book entries at face value. They require them to be stamped as true by the candidate’s current company.

Shed Dog,

Sounds like you have something you need to get off your chest?

Hugh Jarse and others:

The ICUS discussion, as 404 mentioned, has been done to death. It rears its ugly head several times a year!

As I remember it, last time the question was posed, it was given a thorough enquiry by JetA (who fortunately came around!).

No, although i find it hard to accept that the intent behind the legislation was to allow Pilots to qualifiy for an ATPL without ever having any real world command experience. If CAR 5.40 was to be considered as a correct and stand alone piece of legislation, what 404 is stating would be correct.

WRT the advertisment in the Australian for Pilots, it could be misleading, the wages for these guys have not changed eg,

Including Super (9%), the figure are/have been for sometime:
Conq a bit over $53K,
Metro a bit under $60K,
Bras a bit over $63K,
Dash 8 $72 odd and $75 odd.

These figure do not appear changed.

So the figures quotes in the advertisement are inclusive of:

1) base salaries as above,

2) $10-25K odd dollar "productivity bonus", not sure if its paid weekly, yearly, it does not even specifically rate a mention in the "Base Remuneration", so it is not a "salary", being a bonus, it could be withdrawn at any time.

3) Superannuation, so subtract 9% from all the above figures.

If you are concerned, perhaps you should give Rick Burton at the TWU a call: 0417 914 108, if you are not sure who he is, read the NJS/Cobham threads.