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-   -   Exodus from Skippers (Merged) (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/259924-exodus-skippers-merged.html)

captwawa 15th Apr 2007 15:39

More to leave....
 
At the latest sundowner all the talk was about more metro guys going to Skywest....

With the introduction of the extremely overpriced 'c***t' scheme it may be a stopgap measure but surely when the time comes and these people do not have the experience necessary - what will happen???

Only 8 or so Braz captains for 6 aircraft - o dear

I wonder if monkeys are being trained to fly the aircraft?

'gday folks today you're aircraft is under the command of johnny the monkey'

tops :ok:

Icarus2001 26th May 2007 06:44


Pilots with very very minimal experience becoming fleet managers,
Whilst noting that fleet manager is an admin role it is surely unprecedented to have a fleet manger who is not even checked to line as a Captain (or F/O) on the fleet he or she is managing?

Ultra high turn over of crews, trying to fix it with cadets will not help if you do not have any training staff left and those cadets cannot be dragged up with ICUS to command potential, no training staff to run the ICUS.

Now we get to see what mangement is really made off. Pretty easy to expand when the mining industry is booming. Now what if your HR practises do not provide the required outcomes?

piston broke again 26th May 2007 08:01

As far as I know, not too many pilots moving on or in the process of moving on in the coming weeks. Would make a change!

Gooose 26th May 2007 08:31


Ultra high turn over of crews, trying to fix it with cadets will not help if you do not have any training staff left and those cadets cannot be dragged up with ICUS to command potential, no training staff to run the ICUS.

I thought ICUS could be logged so long as the F/Os have a command endorsement and they are the handling pilot for the sector being flown.....are C&T captains needed onboard as PIC to permit the F/O to log ICUS?

Dog One 26th May 2007 10:10

Yes, either a training captain or check captain, depending on what is in their T & C manual.

jarjar 26th May 2007 10:50

Goose,
This rumour has done the yards on pprune, no you cannot log ICUS just because you are the handling pilot, even if you have a command endorsement. Ill wait for the long list of quotes and misinterpreations of the CAR'S/O'S shortly. You must be specifically conducting your command training sitting in the left hand seat , with a c& t or training captain in the right, to be able to log ICUS.
If this is what is happening around the industry then there are a lot of resumes out there that would make for some great reading.

JarJar

neville_nobody 26th May 2007 11:08


You must be specifically conducting your command training sitting in the left hand seat , with a c& t or training captain in the right, to be able to log ICUS.
:=

Nope you only need to be nominated as ICUS for the flight and you can do it in the RHS if you want. No requirement to be in the LHS. I think if you went around Australia and asked every FOI what his thoughts are you'd probably get 1000 different answers. However for people like skippers et al it will be the ONLY way they will be getting people with the minimums in the future.

It's either going to be ICUS or a complete rewrite of the regs with minimums thrown out the window and the emphasis then on training. However for Skippers this would be not cost effective, as you'd pay the money for a extensive sim training program then only to be a Casual on a Metro.

Maybe it's time for people like skippers to realise that they have a business model that is flawed as it is assuming pilot pay and training will be alot lower that what they really should be. Regionals are probably in the same boat.

Aquaplaner 27th May 2007 02:39

jarjar
 

You must be specifically conducting your command training sitting in the left hand seat , with a c& t or training captain in the right, to be able to log ICUS.
That is not correct!
From the regs:

5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision
(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision
only if:
(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;
or
(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a commercial
pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence; and
(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorizes him or her to fly
the aircraft as pilot in command; and
(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight crew
rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out
that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned; and
(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft; and
(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot
acting in command under supervision; and
(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the
operator of the aircraft.
So in order to log ICUS in a Metro for example, the pilot acting in command under supervision needs as a minimum:
1) A fresh CPL
2) A command endorsement
3) A MECIR
4) To be rostered to conduct the flight acting in command under supervision.

An operator may impose additional restrictions i.e. only training/ check captains allowed to supervise ICUS pilots etc. However, this is not required by the regs.

Dog One 27th May 2007 05:54

"An operator may impose additional restrictions i.e. only training/ check captains allowed to supervise ICUS pilots etc. However, this is not required by the regs."

Wouldn't 5.40 (f) disagree with this statement? In my experience in 217 organisations 5.40 (f) has always been expanded to show a training requirement for "appointed pilots" if they do not hold any Training & Checking approvals.

Aquaplaner's statement indicates that anyone can act as an ICUS Captain, which is not strictly correct, as they must be appointed, and the appoint process is tied to the Training 7 Checking manual.

In most cases their must be a need for the person to undertake ICUS, ie command upgrade. Its not intended for FO's to claim all their flying as ICUS on the handling leg.

jarjar 27th May 2007 07:49

yes dog one you are correct, its a case of people reading one regulation and not refering to the the other regulations which paint the "whole picture". For those of you who are logging Icus for the sake of it, good luck to you. If you believe what you are doing is correct, put your money where your mouth is, walk down to your local CASA office, hand over your logbook, explain to them what your doing, then let us all know, how it ends up, not just to say, "there you go JARJAR you were wrong", but for the benefit of everyone reading this forum.

JarJar

Aquaplaner 27th May 2007 08:18

Dog One
 

Wouldn't 5.40 (f) disagree with this statement? In my experience in 217 organisations 5.40 (f) has always been expanded to show a training requirement for "appointed pilots" if they do not hold any Training & Checking approvals.
Traditionally all ICUS conducted was line training for the purpose of a command upgrade or some other qualification and was therefore the domain of the CAR217 organisation. All pilots conducting this training were appointed for this purpose in accordance with the guidelines in their Check and Training Manual.
An FO, with a CPL, who is “cleared to line”, can log ICUS for the purpose of accruing the hours required for the issue of an ATPL outside of the CAR 217 organisation as he/she is not undergoing training.

Aquaplaner's statement indicates that anyone can act as an ICUS Captain, which is not strictly correct, as they must be appointed, and the appoint process is tied to the Training 7 Checking manual.
I did not say that anyone can act as an ICUS Captain. They do have to be appointed, but this appointment can take place outside of the CAR217 organisation.

Its not intended for FO's to claim all their flying as ICUS on the handling leg.
I am sure this was true when the documents were written. However, the effect of the wording is that they can.

Aquaplaner 27th May 2007 08:31

jarjar
 

its a case of people reading one regulation and not refering to the the other regulations which paint the "whole picture".
For the benefit of everyone reading this forum, especially those who may be considering handing over a large amount of money to become part of a cadet scheme. Maybe you can post your references to the other regulations which paint the "whole picture" for us all.

Defenestrator 27th May 2007 08:39

Aquaplaner,
So which one is it going to be. A company either operates under the banner of a 217 training organisation or it does not. It cannnot for convenience turn it on and off. And to be honest I don't put a lot of faith in your argument. This business of "outside the CAR217 organisation" doesn't hold a lot of water for mine. Care to qualify that?

And this little pearl,

An FO, with a CPL, who is “cleared to line”, can log ICUS for the purpose of accruing the hours required for the issue of an ATPL outside of the CAR 217 organisation as he/she is not undergoing training.
Sorry but thats just a false statement. I'm happy to eat my words. But mate you just can't go making statements like this without backing them up with reference to CAO/CAR. We don't do command practice in this country and ICUS is conducted from the left seat with a suitably qualified Training Captain in the right....PERIOD. With those parameters met then yes, log the flight in the ICUS column. But that is the only circumstance that will allow it.

D

polyfly 27th May 2007 09:23

CASA rules?
 
A little off the topic but was wondering if anybody could help me out? I am looking to move to Aussie and wanted to start reading up on rules etc. I however can't seem to find any on the CASA website (I'm a bit confused with CAR 1998 etc). I am after the equivalent of CAA NZ's PARTS 61 (Pilot licenses and ratings) , 91 (general operating and flight rules) , 121, 125 and 135 (Air operations, Large, medium and small aircraft). I am also looking for the equivalent of AC's (advisory circulars). Any help would be appreciated thanks.

404 Titan 27th May 2007 09:23

Defenestrator, jarjar & Dog One,

Unfortunately you are incorrect with what you may think the regs are saying. CAR 5.40 is very clear and consistent with ICAO and international practices. ICUS can and is/has been extensively used for many years (mainly by the majors but is just as applicable to the regional’s) to allow low time pilots and cadets accumulate the hours necessary to acquire an ATPL and to eventually get a command. Points that must be emphasised are that these hours can be accumulated outside a training environment. You don’t have to have a training captain in the left seat and all it takes is a blanket statement in the company’s ops manual that allows ICUS to be logged by the FO when he is PF.

I think the reality of the situation is that you haven’t come across this before in your career and are questioning those that say it is legal. For someone that has worked with this reality for many years, it is legal and many operators i.e. (Qantas) use it to employ low time pilots/cadets into the right seat with an eventual goal of seeing them promoted into the left seat. And for the record QF don’t have a dispensation to allow Cadets to log ICUS. It is all done under CAR 5.40.

Having said all that if an operator has something in their ops manual that is more restrictive than the CAR’s and the CAO’s then the operator must comply with what is in their ops manual. If down the road the operator needs to remove this they can as long as it is accepted by CASA and isn’t less stringent than the regs.

Defenestrator 27th May 2007 10:46

Titan,
Agreed and only on the grounds that it is covered by the operators GOM with provision for exactly how it is to be conducted in the FOM or like. Reference can always be made to the FAR Part 91 ops that provide for the FO to log P1 when flying pilot (in the right seat). However to my knowledge the regs as I read them now don't provide for every Tom, Dick and Harry to log icus on every flight that he is a crew member. And I'd have a few dollars on it that most FOI's would agree. Reckon it won't be long though before the 'command practice' procedure becomes a lot more common place once we see some guidelines introduced into the CASA documents.

Regards

D

404 Titan 27th May 2007 11:14

Defenestrator

No the regs don’t allow anyone to log ICUS. I have highlighted the relevant section that says just that. That being said I would be very surprised to see any operator that employs low time pilots not allow it as the regs provide. I would also be very surprised of any FOI who oversees a low/high capacity RPT operator that doesn’t know what is in their ops manual and therefore what can and can’t be logged by its pilots. In this regard I think that the regs are very clear and no further clarification is needed/required by the regulator.

5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision

(1) A person may fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision only if:

(a) the person holds:

(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;

or

(ii) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;

and

(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorizes him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command;

and

(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned;

and

(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft;

and

(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision;

and

(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft.

Aquaplaner 27th May 2007 12:43

Defenestrator
 
I am not suggesting that the Check and Training system can be switched on and off, rather that a qualified FO can log ICUS in accordance with CAR 5.40 (quoted above) on a regular line flight without any check and training personnel in the aircraft.

Not every Tom, Dick and Harry can log ICUS, only those the operator of the aircraft permits to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision (CAR 5.40) and as 404 Titan has correctly stated all it takes is a blanket statement in the company’s ops manual that allows ICUS to be logged by the FO when he is PF.

Reckon it won't be long though before the 'command practice' procedure becomes a lot more common place once we see some guidelines introduced into the CASA documents.
You are right about that one. The following quote is from the proposed amendment to Civil Aviation Regulation 5.40 concerning the Multi-crew Pilot Licence:

5.40(1)(a)(i) pilot acting in command under supervision
Insert
- multi-crew pilot licence
intent - to allow an MPL holder to operate, and accrue hours, as pilot in command under supervision
It seems that CASA does not have a problem with pilots using ICUS to "accrue hours"

I'm happy to eat my words. But mate you just can't go making statements like this without backing them up with reference to CAO/CAR. We don't do command practice in this country and ICUS is conducted from the left seat with a suitably qualified Training Captain in the right....PERIOD.
I am also happy to eat my words. Maybe you could back up your statements with reference to CAO/CAR and set me straight?

bushy 27th May 2007 16:10

Endorsement?
 
Surely you need an ATPL to be endorsed to fly a multi crew aircraft above 5700kg as PIC?
How then can a CPL holder meet the requirement to have that command endorsement in order to log ICUS?

Islander Jock 27th May 2007 16:21

Bushy,

Surely you need an ATPL to be endorsed to fly a multi crew aircraft above 5700kg as PIC?
I can't quote a reference but someone I know checked with a CASA FOI and their position on it is that you can log ICUS without an ATPL but that can only be with a C&T Captain doing the supervision.


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