August 07 according to an AFAP memo. 3 aircraft to be delivered in 07 and the remainder in 2008 from memory.

I am aware regional pax are screened on arrival in sydney. However I thought that with aircraft over a certain capacity passengers had to be screened prior to the flight. Theoretically if a 737 was to fly DBO-SYD the pax would need to be screened in DBO where as a Dh8 could have paxed screened in SYD on arrival. Is that not correct?

Can't find anything after a quick look on the DOTARS website.

Why worry about that sort of crap.:mad: Just look after the pointy end and you will have less heart burn!!!:ugh: :ugh: :D

ASTA 2004 says what?
 

Well, I'm no expert but I am pretty sure that the Aviation Transport Security Act 2004 and associated regulations only require passenger screening for "jet air services" which only applies to a portion of the "security-controlled" airports.

All "security-controlled" airports must have at least one trained person to screen passengers in case DOTARS ups the screening requirements.

Therefore, the introduction of a jet air service will require a terminal upgrade (ie a sterile area) and ongoing operational costs associated with the passenger screening.

Thats definitely something for these places to consider.

LF

Thanks Warped.

So Tommy/Tammy Terrorist will be able to board at an unscreened airport with an arsenal of weapons and have his/her way with the plane?
Or even worse secret them on the plane which does a SYD/MEL/CBR leg for example?

I don't think so.

I don't Joe/Joanne Public will take too kindly that a JET will not have a screening done. It was bad enough out ports like Port Lincoln, Ceduna, even Kangaroo Island with many pax querying lack of security.

I think Ditzy Boy is heading down the right track something to do with capacity, but then again it might be form of propulsion.

Look at ADL at the moment. All REX pax jump in a bus that gets driven to their "terminal". How easy is it to commander a bus, even if its got Keanu Reeves or Sandra Bullock driving it.

I still think that if jets start operating to regional ports (lets call them category 2 ie no full time AFP or full luggage screening) then their is going to be a truckload of infrastructure to be built, manned and eventually paid for by Joe/Joanne Public just so that port can now have jets flying into it.

And I'm not even going start on the tech issues that these planes might need ie all the nav gear, emergency response teams and so on.
I have no doubt that there are more qualified people who will read this and advise exactly what a jet will need going into say Albury or places where VB think they'll pick up 100,000 plus people.

And will the Govt market move across? Not likely if they are entitled to business class.

The Kendell CRJ in flight service was brilliant, the plane was faster and quieter than the 146, Ansett forced some of those routes to Kendell to operate as they were making a huge loss, and the Govt market screamed blue murder due to no biz class. Senior Ansett people even blamed Kendell for this, which goes to show how much these dudes knew what their regional service was offering!

Rock on!

Wow and I heard that the Crj was the second most expensive aircraft to run in the Ansett fleet according to the administrators ( and as accountants they would have an unbiased opinion) , and that would be why Bombardier have thirty + of them in the desert while Embraer sell everything on the production line. Bombardier are reacting to this by making 1300 workers redundant in Ireland (as you would). Lets send that category D machine to Albury that makes sense and should make us heaps of money. Lets face it the Embraer for Virgin will be used to enchance routes that a 737 should never have been on like Sydney-Mackay and Adelaide-Hobart not take over fully fledged 737 routes as Ansett tried to do. Lets hope they have a better result than Rod.......

Why don't we put blockades around all the cities and get every truck inspected in case it carries a load of fertilizer that turns into a bomb, or a million other things that some could do. Armed gaurds on city buses in case they get hijacked. You have got more chance of being killed by a pack of 'killer bees' than a terrorist.:mad:

This airport security screening etc is a load of sh.t and everyone knows it but it makes 'important people' feel good & feel they are doing something. Typical political feel good crap that goes on all the time once a politician gets his hand on something that may get some votes. :yuk:

There are so many holes in the cheese why even raise these issues and encourage some 'prick in high places' to look for more ways to waste our hard earned tax dollars. How many threads has there been on Prune re the stupidity of the current system. DON'T ENCOURAGE THEM, they get enough ideas that look good but ineffective, without our help.:(

I live in hope that common sense will prevail one day but I guess I will die a dreamer.:(

Give the passengers in some of these more remote places the chance of a decent service instead of some 'cigar tube' or irish shed that should have been scrapped years ago. (I do realise thay may just about be phased out now but Sydney-Dubbo-Parkes in a Metro recently was not that exciting).

Virgin Blue EMB 170 and 190 pics
 

From the Embraer website
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...B190and170.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...inBlueE170.jpg
Looking forward to getting these!!!!

Looks good. How do they match up for flight times over the longer distances? Do they have cargo bins underneath?

Lets get this topic back on track.

just to clarify, airports with jet services must provide screening of pax as per the regs. turboprops are screening exempt. so any ports who receive the new embraers, under the current regs, will be required to provide screening for all passengers.

I don't believe screening at the next port is a viable option and I doubt DOTARS would allow this to occur in any case, all airports in Oz that receive RPT jet services MUST provide pax screening...

Back to the subject, the new jets do look great, with them and the new IFE being rolled out on the 737 fleet they are certainly going to give QF/JQ something to think about...

If you're talking about containers, no they don't. When I was in the hold last, they are quite pokey. I wouldn't like to be the baggage chuckers esp on the 190 unless it has a carpet.

Ts&Cs on the ticket will need to be modified to include "Kitchen Sinks not accepted".

I really think that this is the perfect family of aircraft for the population density and distances traveled in Australia. I have only flown as a passenger on the Embraer 170, but it is in no way a regional jet at all. The sophistication of the cockpit and its sheer size would surely prevent it from being classified as such?

Not to mention the acquisition cost. Only the big airlines like DJ will be able to get the utilisation and economy of scale that such an investment requires. A couple of smaller local players are dreaming if they think thay can make new jungle jets pay. Better for them to look at....the GAS CHAMBER....

.....so what are they going to "pay" the Capt and F/O to fly these things???
...we all know they are nice pieces of equipment,lets get down to the nitty- titty...PB

PB,

Embraer Captain
July 2007 N/A $112,000
July 2008 3% $115,360
July 2009 3% $118,821
July 2010 3% or >CPI (Max 5%) $122,385
July 2011 3% or >CPI (Max 5%) $126,057

First Officers will be paid the appropriate percentage of a Captain’s annual salary as follows and in accordance with the effective dates of increase given to Captains:
(a) Level 1 - 55%
(b) Level 2 - 60%
(c) Level 3 - 65%


Cheers,

Con:ok:

Contract Con...thanks mate,...actually not a bad pay rate at all...better than I expected...the boys here are being paid less than that,so whomever is negoitating your rates/payscales is doing bloody good job....will have to pass this on as Ive done the AUS/US conversion ...and many will not be happy...especially if its for the 190.....PB

Contract Con has left out the $15400 (roughly) retention payment that increases by about 3% per year.

This takes the 1st years salary for a skipper to about $127000

What sort of range does this aircraft have compared to the 737-700 /800?

Would it have the legs to go from MEL to somewhere like Port Vila for example?

The E190 has a stated range of 2,300nm (4260Km)
The E170 has a stated range of 2,000nm (3,704Km)

So if Ozjet were paying expensive monthly lease payments on brand new jets versus operating their fully owned (with spares) 737-200 then "you reckon" they would have had a chance.:rolleyes:

Hey, Chris, I have some land I want to sell you...;)

By the way Ozjet still operate charter flights. They just missed the mark on RPT.

Wirgin - Underbelly lockers are the go, but they are skinny. 3 bags endways across the base and not a lot of vertical room. Far more adequate than a bizjet on steroids like the CRJs but baggage on a 75-100% load factor flight would blow any thoughts of cargo out of the water. You could not guarantee uplift to regular "fresh" market shippers.

It looks like a very handy performer with great range though.

Best all

EWL

Chris,
unfortunately the basic reason Ozjet did not continue in RPT was a lack of bums on seats. Weather it was a flash new E190 burning 1600kg/hr or a guzzler such the B737-200 would have made little difference.
If you do a net Present value (NPV) calculation on the fuel burn DIFFERENTIAL between the two vs the huge lease cost differential of owning an old airframe or paying say $400K USD (my guess) per month on a flash one........ The clapped out BAE146/B737/727 etc will always winout with the bean counters and is the reason why these types will fly our skies for years to come.

Illusion,

Your points are well taken and quite respected. This is one of those half-full/half-empty arguments. Bombardier has been in World Trade Court with the Brazilian maker because they believe that the ERJs were being offered at prices so low that they were being subsidised by WTO loans.

Bombardier has since laid off workers, Embraer has full books...

Whether you consider the cost of a lease payment or the labour costs of overhaul and extra aircraft required for AOG situations ,(when stuck with old tired airframes), the balance sheet could show convincing arguments for leasing new equipment.

Again, its not a matter of saying, "I told you so". I wish that Ozjet had made it, that I was proved wrong and that they were recycling more aircraft and employing more LAMEs/AMEs.
The reason they were not getting full planes probably had something to do with the perception of the operation to begin with...starting with the lipstick on a pig.

I would never consider working for an employer that operated the 737-200 as it's main stable. The operating costs are prohibitive; Southwest proved it by grounding the ones they already owned and were flying full on their established routes.

Beancounters don't take into account AOG and loss of goodwill due to unreliable A/C, sure it's an unknown qty, but you'd think that they would at least give it some small consideration? Well they don't, and that was painfully obvious to me in my previous life ( no, I'm not getting bitter and twisted Clarry :rolleyes: )

Looking at the Embraer website it certainly looks like a capable piece of kit.
A couple of things stood out : Cant access the performance ( not available ) and whilst they say it has superior hot'n'high performance, it requires just over 2100m, ISA, to take off at MTOW......this may ( or may not ) make it interesting out of a 1700m r/w @ ISA + 20.( mind you, it won't be an orphan )

As usual, with any A/C, it will be interesting to see how it goes in our unique operating conditions. ( for the uneducated ; short, hot, high r/w and long sectors )

Icarus 2001, I see they're having interviews too! Should I jump on that opportunity...like your land deal? I think the long term prospects look about the same

SL ISA+20 1700m balanced field simplified TO calc Flap 4

Max tow @46000kg

OEW 190@ 27000kg

SIMPLIFIED TAKEOFF ANALYSIS TABLES
EMBRAER 170 – CF34-8E5 – T/O-1 MODE – JAA CERTIFICATION
FLAPS 2 – V2/Vs =1.20 – DRY RUNWAY – ANTI ICE OFF – A/C ON
Temp 1600m 1800m 2000m 2200m 2400m 2600m 2800m
35 31336 R 33137 R 34820 R 36444 R 37200 S 37200 S 37200 S
SIMPLIFIED TAKEOFF ANALYSIS TABLES
EMBRAER 170 – CF34-8E5 – T/O-1 MODE – JAA CERTIFICATION
FLAPS 4 – V2/Vs =1.19 – DRY RUNWAY – ANTI ICE OFF – A/C ON
Temp 1600m 1800m 2000m 2200m 2400m 2600m 2800m
35 34502 R 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W 36166 W


Limitation codes:
• R – Runway Length;
• W – WAT (Climb);
• B – Brake;
• S – Structural;
• A – Approach Climb.

Employment???
 

So, any DJ crew say when DJ will start hiring for these new machines, and how they will be hiring (I.e: the normal way on their website). All is very quiet..... I wonder if there will be a shortage of boys/girls with jet experience to get on this machine, and whether they will be taking from GA? :ok:

started interviewing last week!!!!:D :D

Pay is pretty dismal. Under our new payscales for newly recruited fo (B scale now been introduced) On the Emb170/190 F/o's will earn $15,00 more than our cabin supervisors. They will have trouble getting pilots from within, as its not much of a pay rise for 737 f/os to captain on these new buses. We need 220 pilots by 2008. They'll need experienced jet drivers, as the 170/190 will be used on routes into BNA,HVB,PPN all nice little CTAFs. I can see the same thing happeneing here as with the CRJ programe, employing contract dudes on big bucks with type experience.

Could anyone of the Virgin guys in the know PM me what the age cutoff is to apply for the new Embraer jet operation.I am in the sandpit at the moment and would like to try to get to get home for personal family reasons.I know they are after a certain type of guy.I would just like to get a heads up.
Rgds
GJ

With all this jungle jet talk, does anyone know for certain what the first schedule will look like? As I understand it, flying will start Oct 07 with 3x EMB170s with the 190s rolling in from early 08.

Anyone know the number of VB F/os who bidded across for this new type? I heard they were after a 12% productivity increase on that type too? Offers closed 2 weeks ago I hear and that would then decide where new starts go & F/Os time to command on 737 fleet... mmm very interesting
I managed to have a "Capt Cook" at the beast while it was in Oz and was very impressed. Good choice VB :D and good luck:ok:

Chocks Away,

Which refueller did you get your information from, or did you just make up this rubbish.
I am an FO with VB, and there is NO LIST, NO OFFERS and NOTHING has opened or closed as far as bidding onto the EMB. We are still negotiating the EBA, and nothing will happen until then.

Your post is total rubbish, and you should remove it.

Chris, not ALL American airlines have parked their 737-200s. I know Alaska Airlines still operate theirs out of ANC.

I don't think it was entirely the fault of the a/c. Either way, it is a shame OzJet didn't last in RPT. A good mate found himself unemployed. :(

Near Miss,

Your observations about Alaska Airlines are correct. The 737-200s that you saw in Anchorage had the gravel kits added. One prominent feature of this kit is to prevent FOD at the engine inlets by a discharge of bleed air forward of the intake. I don't think it would be nearly as effective on a high bypass engine.

I am very sorry that your friend lost his job. It's a shame that many people did and that they thought that this would be a ray of light in the depressed employment markets that we recently endured.

This is one of those cases where we all wish that we were wrong and that the operation was succesful.

Chris, I didn't notice the gravel kit on the 200. Then again it was snowing and I wasn't getting out of a 23C cockpit to have a closer look. ;)

My mate has now left Oz (like many of us) and scored a better job. :ok:

It is great that VB is expanding and getting new toys for us to play with, it is just a shame in Oz that many companies are expecting more from all their staff (pilots, cabin crew, engineers, gate staff, etc) for less reward (pay, time off, staff travel). :(

All the best for those going to be operating the new machine. Hopefully the pax will like them as much as the pilots. Although they still call anything smaller than a 747 a "little plane". It almost made me sick when I once heard an “informed” father refer to a 737 as “little” to his son. I was flying a C310 at the time. :{

As Dubya says, we're still negotiating our eba. Until thats sorted out, nothing is going to happen with the Emb, which puts the ball in our court, I hope. Only management positions being advertised internally. Bases, routes etc, very little is known. All I can say, is stay tuned, and don't sell yourself short for the sake of getting on a jet. :ok: