Virgin Pacific 777
 

I was at a conference last week and heard from two independent sources, both very senior managers, one of them from a Major Airline, that it has been confirmed Virgin is definately getting 777s. One of the gentlemen said he doesn't know how they are getting there hands on them so quick, but they have.

Now we all know in Aviation that many stories from "good sources" end up being rubbish, but has anyone else got any info or goss to share regarding this?

If indeed they use 777s, who will crew them? Will the Virgin Blue guys and girls, who have shed out big$$$ (from another thread) be guaranteed a position? Will it be based on seniority? Or as with every other Virgin enterprise be a completely new startup?

Whatever happens, I'm sure all will be revealed in the very near future!!

Evyjey

Unfortunately Blue Foot, I think your right. That's the sadness of the industry we are in at present. If the operators can get away with it, the of course they will. Simple business really. They have the extremely fortunate position that Oz is a great place, and they abuse that fact. Supply and demand!!

They'll be no shortage of takers, and I'm sure a few EK drivers will be on there way home to exercise there experience.

Just be interesting, if it is true, how they will organise the selection process.

evyjet

I'm sure once the JPC and co. get wind of this they'll fly it for sure! (Or maybe even for free.)

I wonder what DJ will offer as a package to fly a wide body. I wonder if they'll offer more than they do for a 737 command or whether they'll go the J* way and offer crap?!?!

BK said last week at a pilot forum that it would be 777's and Virgin Blue pilots would be flying them. He suggested between 5-8 aircraft, and which 3 US destinations would be serviced out of MEL SYD and BN. He also said they would initially need about 80 pilots. Our PWC are endeavoring to have written into the new agreement that future international ops WILL be crewed by VB pilots. No mention of paying for endorsement.
Time will tell.

Here we go again, Bk said this and so and so said that! I would bet my right nut that not one single VB pilot will end up in these so called 777's, they will use this bait to get the PWC and the AFAP to endorse CAP 371, give the pilot group a 3% payrise, and then get the boy's from EK who will give their right nut to come back home and fly these machines.

Wake up guys and start smelling the coffee, these are diversion tactics to get the aerosexuals and command junkies to sign off on these substandard conditions and pay, just recently happened at another Australian Airline. Stand tall and unite and look long term. The next thing is Virgin Bush, routes taken off VB pilots (sounds familiar), then both groups pitched against each other for the next aircraft aquisition (sound familiar).

Time will tell!

Will be interesting to find out where the 777s are going to come from!

evyjet

Well said dirty deeds,

The only way the vb guys will get their hands on a triple is spending a couple of hours on the pc filling in an Emirates application.

It doesn’t make any sense not to use type rated crews from other airlines who wish to return to oz, it avoids the paying for rating debate, no arguments about who gets a drive and who doesn’t after all, we know there is no seniority at VB.

At the end of the day if it is going to be a real full service airline it would be so much easier to start a new company from scratch.

The only connection required with VB is being Australian owned.

Might the news in today's Age make a difference?
 

Singapore twist in the Toll Patrick take over. The Age 24 March
MARKET rumours that Singaporean Government investment company Temasek is planning to take a stake in Virgin Blue have added new intrigue to Toll Holdings' struggle for control of Patrick Corp.
With the market absorbing Toll's newly revised $5.49 billion bid for Patrick, shares in both companies gained ground, Toll closing 20¢, or 1.4 per cent, higher at $14.25 and Patrick gaining 8¢, or 1 per cent, to $8.14.
Analysts continued to give guarded support to Toll's bid, with the proviso that Toll chief Paul Little needs to put more cash into the deal to sweeten it for shareholders.
An analyst with a leading broking firm told The Age that Toll had the capacity to put in another 50¢ a share of cash because of the expected returns from asset sales that would result from commitments to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission.
The $86 billion investment giant Temasek came into the picture yesterday after news it had offloaded its 3 per cent Qantas stake because of the Australian Government's decision to block Singapore Airlines from the trans-Pacific market. The sales caused Qantas shares to slump from $4 to $3.65. Qantas closed yesterday at $3.71.
Market watchers suspect Temasek may partner Sir Richard Branson in the unwinding of Patrick's 62 per cent stake in Virgin Blue that will accompany a successful Toll bid.
The unwinding would raise Sir Richard's stake in Virgin Blue from 25 to 40 per cent, with Toll likely to hold on to about 10 per cent. That would leave up to half the company for Temasek, which is in turn the largest shareholder in Singapore Airlines.
The market believes a deal could then be done to wind Virgin Blue in with Singapore Airlines, giving Singapore access to the Australian domestic and Australia-US markets it has long coveted.
Singapore Airlines could conceivably work well with Sir Richard as they have been partners in Virgin Atlantic since 1999.
If this rumour were to become fact, Singapore Airlines' preemptive right to prevent the Virgin brand name to be used on international routes would no longer be an issue. Why create another new "brand" when the Virgin Blue name is established? The interlining of SQ passengers and oncarriage on VB within Oz or to the West Coast of US would achieve SQ's original aims of accessing the trans Pacific route. There's always more than one way to skin a cat but I'll let you guys debate who gets the gig to fly the 777 and perhaps that's where the 777's are coming from.

I am a paid up member of the AFAP. I am very experienced on the 777 Pacific routes as PIC. I have been in the industry in Australia, Europe and Asia for over 30 years. Without emotion getting into it, on exactly what grounds should I refuse a contract to fly a VB (or any other name) 777 based in Australia if it was offerred to me?

I would of course not do it if there were VB 777 pilots on strike or if there was a recruiting ban or some such but other than that, exactly why would I not take the job?

Before you VB lot wet your undies with excitement.....VP will rely on experienced crews recruited directly.. initially to get the ball rolling...Who knows they might use the same strategy as PB and employ just the management...and use contract crews...I didn't hear too many complaints then..;)

Before every one jumps to conclusions lets look at the facts.


Quote:
“Another key feature of the Government's new airline policy is the reform of restrictions on foreign ownership of Australian airlines. This requires amendment of the Air Navigation Act 1920 (Cth). Currently, the Act limits ownership of shares in an Australian international airline (other than Qantas) to no more than 25% for an individual foreign airline, and no more than 35% in total for all foreign airlines. The Bill proposes to remove these restrictions, replacing them with a simple requirement that no more than 49% of an Australian international airline be owned by foreign persons.

The current limit of 49% on total foreign ownership and control will be retained, as this is essential under the bilateral air services agreements with other countries. A number of foreign countries refuse to allow airlines to enter their market if they are not substantially owned and controlled by nationals of the airline's country of origin.”

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/B.../2000bd137.htm




So that means that Temasek & RB can have a max of 49%. If Paul Little is willing to play the game Toll could have the other 51% and remain legal.

It is a widely understood position that Toll is moving into Asia, including air freight. It is also widely believed that when AaE introduce the 733F there will be a capacity crunch….. do you think Toll is going to give up on over night express? Not likely.


As to where the 777 may come from…..


SQ has the following 777-300ER’s due for delivery this year. 34568,34569,34570/71/72 plus a lot more options.


http://www.planemad.net/airlinerlist/boeing-777.zip


So lets look at crewing, we have all seen what the JPC have done. Well the DJ boys are not that dumb IMHO. DEC’s will be filled by returnees from the sand pit who have made their $$ and want to trade up to lifestyle of home. Current DJ guys will either have to quit the 737 operation or put up and shut up.


So in reality via code shares and strategic investment the ultimate owners of SQ still get a piece of the lucrative market. Give it 5-10 years and QF will have diversified into everything except aviation and there will be the impetus to relax the foreign investment laws in a similar manner to how long it has taken for the cross media ownership laws to unravel.


We live in interesting times.:E :E :E

Plenty of long haul heavy time (including 777) amongst existing VB crew. Why on earth would they need direct entry crews??

I suppose being longhaul they would require SO's or CRZ FO's???

If so that would be good for some GA guys.

Relax guys,
Keep your 777's and right nuts! Most Emirates guys would'nt give sh*t about VB, J* or this industry.

I'm sure it's all yours

Can somebody clear this up for me??

Is BK the chief pilot of Virgin? Is it the same BK who was flying for a domestic carrier prior to the '89 thing? Is it the guy to whom principles meant so much? Is it the same guy who wouldn't turn his back on his 'mates'?

If it is in fact the same person, he's CP of an organization that has new starts pay for endorsements, has no seniority, pays less than 2/3 (closer to half) of what the other domestic carrier pays, and now looks like bringing in outside pilots to fly a new type.

Tell me it can't be the same person. More importantly, tell me he isn't doing it just for money. After all, he stood firm many years back saying "this is not just about money, this is about working conditions for Australian pilots for generations."

And then tell me to sit down and pi$$ myself laughing at the hypocrisy.

Cruise F/Os, isn't it a delightfully quaint name? :rolleyes:

Does that mean you don't have to do any work until the aircraft is sitting up at FL350? "Guys i'll be in the crew rest til ToC, give me a call when you need me."

Give me "Second Officer" anyday, especially when you have a look at what Jetstar are paying their Cruise F/Os! :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Anyway, sorry for the thread drift.

TL

TL,

Easy to be all 'high and mighty' when you sitting in a red rat doing sweet FA as cruise relief for 90K a year eh.:hmm:

There is no greater working condition than actually having a job. Ansett pilots had great working conditions until their airline folded under them. VB have replaced those jobs and built far more. well done. Don't work for them and never will but at least the guys/girls are working and getting good experience thta can translate into even better jobs later.

Engine Out,

I just reckon the name Cruise F/O is a stupid and misleading one. Sounds like an upgrade from an S/O til you see the JQ Intl pay packet.

By the way, the rat on the tail is white. And what does it matter what I earn? Why don't you ring Geoff and offer to do it for less.

TL