Autopilots pros and cons
 

G'day all.

Further to a post I saw on the AIR NSN future, I began to wonder :confused:

What is the general thoughts on autopilots????????????????

Most airliners have them part from EAG. Now in todays environment with EGPWS and TCAS don't you think AP's would also be common place???????????????

Now this is not a bitch or slagging post so please only informed and genuine posts please.

splat :ok:

Splat, I am not sure of the reasons behind Eagle deciding to have the autopilots removed from the 1900s but I was genuinely surprised. Personally I believe that they are an invaluable safety tool. Should the **** be hitting the fan they allow pilots to dedicate more time and mental thought process to dealing with the situation at hand. I know eagle check to single pilot standard so pilots must be very proficeint with their handling and decision making. However, take the case a short while ago when one of their pilots was incapacitated, how would it have looked had something else gone wrong then (murphys and all). It is a bloody high workload expected of one person to be flying the plane, navigating, and dealing with two very different emergencies.
You can call it being lazy but in a lot of situations the autopilot will manouver the aircraft more precisely and smoothly than us mere humans leading to enhanced passenger comfort and satisfaction; which is what our job is all about at the end of the day. Well getting them there safely to.
Does the new to Eagle 1900 that I believe you guys are getting have an autopilot? Will the CBs be pulled and locked? I would be fighting that if you could.
My two cents, cheers.

I think the only con would be cost. As belowMDA stated, they are not only a valuable tool for normal operations, they effectively provide another set of hands in an emergency situation.

Now what's this about a new 1900, not one of the ex PNG machines sitting in HLZ is it:confused:

Yeah good thoughts but would you agree that an AP can harm a pilots handling skills????????? so when the shizza hits the fan and the AP is u/s is the pilot still up to a standard where the aircraft can still be operated correctly.

My point would be that just maybe to much emphasis has being put on AP usage:confused: and not as much only the good old basics.

However I do agree that they should be in any aircraft carrying the fare paying public.

As far as the new planes I hadn't heard that rumour yet. But the white one sitting in Hams is t put it niceley F*%$ed, aparently did around 10000 hours prior to overhaul:eek:

splat

Think that on of the considerations why eag didn't get A/P's would have been the cost I mean why pay extra for somthing that in a bean counters eyes is simply not needed guess somthing else to maintain as well, and we all know how expensive those magic buttons are to keep up to speed that's why even the old school one's in GA there are usually in some state of direpair:rolleyes:
I have my doubt's if the beech or many other's for that matter would have TCAS or GPWS if the fun wreckers didn't make it law??
Splat - your comment about handling ....... well I can sort of see your point but the beech will hopfully be the last ship you fly that has no A/P and now days they are getting pretty complex little suckers with all there different modes and setting for different approach's bla bla I've heard many guys say that the hardest thing in transition training was working how to drive the A/P so in some ways it's a dis-advantage not two be checked and profishent with there use :confused:

No-autopilot aircraft in commercial ops of 19 or more pax should be banned. This is 2004 for god's sake! Make one of those beancounters fly without an A/P. Pilots do not need practice at flying straight and level: there is plenty of opportunity to practice hand-flying during takeoff, landing and during pracci instrument approaches for them to maintain their stick-and-rudder skills. A/Ps significantly reduce crew workload and improve flight safety.
Besides, how can one read the paper and fly at the same time??!!

I remember a chat with some Eagle pilots in AA one day before they arrived....

"Nah, we don't need them. The Bandit and Metro didn't have them so it's not necessary. Most of the guys (& girls) joining didn't use them in GA, so, nah, we don't need them."

Well, the two other chaps with me just sipped our coffee and changed the subject.... I mean, how can you counter that!

And these Eagle chaps weren't junior either!

I know what I'd like on a dark & stormy night, going into an NDB equipped (coastal) airfield on the West Coast or Wanganuivegas!
And that's a wee box of tricks!

However, on a more positive note!!
There will be no more purchases of Aircraft by the Air NZ Group without Autopilots.
Yup, someone mucked up big-time but they won't be retro-fitting them.
(Until they have to sell them 'cause no-one would want to buy them otherwise!)

Vote YES for Autopilots!
 

Just remember they're only as good as the guy telling them what to do though. Not sure they'd make Wangavegas on a stormy night any safer - NDBs aren't safe!!

BelowMDA - point of clarification EAG didn't have A/Ps removed they were never there in the first place. If you want the real reason they're not there talk to some of the old heads at Eagle, at least outloud they'll say it was for cost I'm sure.

Plasteek what have you heard re no retrofitting? I understand there are pretty powerful moves afoot behind the scenes to fit them despite all the negative retoric being espoused publically.

Thump

Splat, don't know if I agree with this logic given that all large, commmercial jet aircraft have multiple autopilots and, in reality, are probably easier to fly than a complex turboprop.

Boeing, Airbus and major airlines all see the value in autopilots. Why wouldn't anyone else??:confused:

I think you will find weight was the big issue. They couldnt have both an autopilot and a toilet with the 19 seat configuration. And seeing as a toilet is a requirement of the Star Alliance, the autopilot gets left in Wichita. Glad to see Star have their priorities right...imm safety or convenience

I'msure someone will correct me if the following is incorrect...

My understanding is that the B1900D comes with the AP as part of the kit.

Eag had it removed.

Jeez how heavy is an A/P these days?!!

Plas, sorry for the semantics, since the A/c was new built I imagine that the A/P was never in the A/c - therefore never removed (from the A/c).

Re the real reason,as I say ask somebody in the know but I think you can safely rule out weight as an issue.:ok:

Thump

ps: isn't an A/P a Star Alliance requirement also?

I think what Plas Teek waz getting at is that the other 1900D's have it as STANDARD, ie part of the ship.
So built in as the aircraft was being put together.

I heard somewhere that bits of the A/P are still in the 1900D's that Eag have.

Retro Fitting was discused at high level within Air NZ but was decided a no go.
Probably to save face on the dips#$t that made the origional desision!

Curious to know just how often the bog gets used on their sectors??

My understanding is that there is a report on the report on ap's:p in the works. The level of saftey is not being continued if you jump off a 747 from LAX then fly to Gissy. Surley STAR ALLIANCE don't know about this or they would hit the roof.

The AP was an option prior to production, much like air con in your car, this option was not taken and therefore no plumbing or left over bits of any sort (with reguards to the AP) are in the Beech.

Cpt Bloogs, I see your point you get enough hands on flying at certain times.
You don't really want to b doing an approach to minimas after hand flying an hour long sector.

Good comments so far, its good to see that this thred hasn't become a slagging match for a change.

Are there any older school pilots (not that your old : ) ) out there who may have started their careers in machines which didn't have AP's and now use them on a regular basis, who have thoughts on AP use.

splat :ok:

P.s the bogg gets used, just depends on the sector length and how long they where in the Koru lounge for prior to boarding

Autopilots or Not?

Well there are certainly many thoughts on this one, with plenty of valid points raised in previous posts, and there are numerous other areas to consider when you talk about the use of an autopilot in emergency situations, like - does it have any rudder authority?

As a checker I see the value of autopilots on a daily basis. Sitting in the back of a sim while crews go about handling abnormal situations allows you to observe the value of load shedding in these situations. Instead of having 70% of your mental capacity taken in manually flying the aircraft, using the AP allows this capacity to be allocated to other important areas, like planning, monitoring and managing to mention a few.

Auotpilots are invaluable tools but they need to stand side by side us as flight crew, who must ensure they maintain personal proficiency in basic manipulative skills as well as automation management.

My 10 cents worth on the subject anyway.

I can't quote figures for the B1900 splat but we've got two J31's in our fleet with autopilot and two without, and the empty weight of the non a/p ones is a good couple hundred kgs lighter ... that makes a hell of a difference to the economics of how many punters you can haul out of a short strip on a hot afternoon ... in fact I would say on quite a few of our longer sectors it's the difference between making money and not making money. If we have a long charter down into Europe somewhere and have more than about 12 pax we quite often have no choice but to send the non a/p machines or we'd never get airborne.

Yes hand flying can get to be a real drag after a day of hard-out IMC but on the bright side, I know for a fact that the pilots from our little airline have a real reputation amongst a few big jet operators here in the UK, as good handlers with rock solid I/F skills, and we all tend to get snapped up pretty quickly by the big boys once we've got 1000 hours or so with this company. I suspect that is also one of the reasons why Eagle pilots have had such a high strike rate with Cathay over the years, they know you guys can actually hand fly an aeroplane :ok:

Interesting to read all the comments and certainly a/p's would be extremely useful on board. However, at the end of the day financial/load considerations would have won the day.

Looking at the alternative - J31/32: ANZ certainly made the right choice for Eagle!!