Qantas Boeing A330-200's - courtesy of the Courier Mail
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In Frozen Chunks (Cloud Cuckoo Land)
Age: 17
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Qantas Boeing A330-200's - courtesy of the Courier Mail
This is yet another example of fine reporting and brilliant research. I hope Qantas enjoys their new Boeing A330's.
From the Courier Mail:
Qantas class wars
By Tania Bawden
26dec02
CRITICISM is increasing of Qantas's domestic business-class operations.
Possible seating arrangements in Qantas's new 300-seat Airbus A330-200s are the latest concern.
The wider cabin means business-class travellers may have to contend with a three-seat middle configuration, instead of a preferred two-seat situation.
Phil Hoffmann Travel managing director Phil Hoffmann said he was concerned about the possible loss of space in the Boeing A330-200s.
"I think the businessman pays that bit extra and wants that extra service and comfort and 'three across' doesn't give you extra comfort," Mr Hoffmann said.
He said business-class travellers relied on additional space to work while travelling interstate.
Industry insiders claim that since the demise of Ansett, Qantas has failed to lift spending and service on its top-paying customers – despite its market dominance.
"We just feel business travellers are getting a poor deal," Australasian Business Travel Association chief executive Glenn Buckingham said.
"We believe that the ongoing depreciation of passenger benefits – from boxed food in economy class to shorter seat pitch and fewer air stewards – is not consistent with any reduction in air fares.
"Qantas has 80 per cent (total) market share and they should be able to control demand and manage their yields pretty well."
Rising taxes were also to blame for high ticket costs.
An Adelaide corporate travel agent, who did not want to be named, said of Qantas's domestic business-class services: "There are a lot of complaints."
"Because they are seen as having a monopoly of the (business) market, they should be using it to the customers' advantage," she said.
Budget airlines Virgin Blue and Qantas spin-off Australian Airlines do not offer multi-class services.
Singapore Airlines has emerged as a possible competitor for business-class services if it enters the Australian market.
A Qantas spokeswoman said business passengers would enjoy "more headroom and more generous seat pitch" on the Airbuses.
The new aircraft, to ply the Cityflyer routes between Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne and Perth, would seat 35 business-class and 265 economy-class passengers.
Up to 13 of the aircraft are expected to complement 19 new Boeing 737-800s as part of Qantas's $13 billion fleet upgrade.
The spokeswoman said Qantas was continuing to review and invest in its business-class services.
Increased services through the hourly inter-city Cityflyer services, more business-class seats on the 737-800 and enlarged corporate lounges were among the initiatives.
The spokeswoman said an upgrading of the Adelaide Airport club was planned
From the Courier Mail:
Qantas class wars
By Tania Bawden
26dec02
CRITICISM is increasing of Qantas's domestic business-class operations.
Possible seating arrangements in Qantas's new 300-seat Airbus A330-200s are the latest concern.
The wider cabin means business-class travellers may have to contend with a three-seat middle configuration, instead of a preferred two-seat situation.
Phil Hoffmann Travel managing director Phil Hoffmann said he was concerned about the possible loss of space in the Boeing A330-200s.
"I think the businessman pays that bit extra and wants that extra service and comfort and 'three across' doesn't give you extra comfort," Mr Hoffmann said.
He said business-class travellers relied on additional space to work while travelling interstate.
Industry insiders claim that since the demise of Ansett, Qantas has failed to lift spending and service on its top-paying customers – despite its market dominance.
"We just feel business travellers are getting a poor deal," Australasian Business Travel Association chief executive Glenn Buckingham said.
"We believe that the ongoing depreciation of passenger benefits – from boxed food in economy class to shorter seat pitch and fewer air stewards – is not consistent with any reduction in air fares.
"Qantas has 80 per cent (total) market share and they should be able to control demand and manage their yields pretty well."
Rising taxes were also to blame for high ticket costs.
An Adelaide corporate travel agent, who did not want to be named, said of Qantas's domestic business-class services: "There are a lot of complaints."
"Because they are seen as having a monopoly of the (business) market, they should be using it to the customers' advantage," she said.
Budget airlines Virgin Blue and Qantas spin-off Australian Airlines do not offer multi-class services.
Singapore Airlines has emerged as a possible competitor for business-class services if it enters the Australian market.
A Qantas spokeswoman said business passengers would enjoy "more headroom and more generous seat pitch" on the Airbuses.
The new aircraft, to ply the Cityflyer routes between Sydney, Brisbane, Melbourne and Perth, would seat 35 business-class and 265 economy-class passengers.
Up to 13 of the aircraft are expected to complement 19 new Boeing 737-800s as part of Qantas's $13 billion fleet upgrade.
The spokeswoman said Qantas was continuing to review and invest in its business-class services.
Increased services through the hourly inter-city Cityflyer services, more business-class seats on the 737-800 and enlarged corporate lounges were among the initiatives.
The spokeswoman said an upgrading of the Adelaide Airport club was planned
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These people will complain about anything 
At least its better than J class on current 733/734 aircraft, that is if you're not fortunate enough to be in rows 1 or 2. They whinge about that, now they will whinge about this
Here's a tip: Go with the competitor, they have leather seats with 3 abreast seating
Oh, I forgot they charge for peanuts and a drink... Something new to complain about perhaps?
At least its better than J class on current 733/734 aircraft, that is if you're not fortunate enough to be in rows 1 or 2. They whinge about that, now they will whinge about this
Here's a tip: Go with the competitor, they have leather seats with 3 abreast seating
Oh, I forgot they charge for peanuts and a drink... Something new to complain about perhaps?
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Stuck in the middle...
Posts: 1,638
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Oh for fcuk's sake, poor diddums. Get on any European business class on a single-aisle & it'll be 2x3 - so someone gets the 'E' seat. Then jump on an EK A330 or pretty much anyone's 777, and guess what - middle seat in business. BA even have (gasp) 2 (!!) middle seats in business - and they face backwards!! (They do turn into fully-flat beds, though... ).
Point being: retract heads from sand, Australian business travellers, and get in step with the rest of the world. The airlines aren't charities, they're in it to make a buck (but manage to make the lowest margins of pretty weel any part of the travel industry). Stop complaining; chances are, you're not even paying for it yourself.
What's really annoying is that Qantas shares are one of Australia's most-widely held - so chances are that many of those griping about the middle seat, would be the same ones who'd gripe if their dividend was cut.
Moreover, Australia is NOT the only country with only a small number of 'mainline' airlines - Canada, France, Germany, Italy, South Africa. It's the norm. Best we get used to it.
Happy new year all!!
Point being: retract heads from sand, Australian business travellers, and get in step with the rest of the world. The airlines aren't charities, they're in it to make a buck (but manage to make the lowest margins of pretty weel any part of the travel industry). Stop complaining; chances are, you're not even paying for it yourself.
What's really annoying is that Qantas shares are one of Australia's most-widely held - so chances are that many of those griping about the middle seat, would be the same ones who'd gripe if their dividend was cut.
Moreover, Australia is NOT the only country with only a small number of 'mainline' airlines - Canada, France, Germany, Italy, South Africa. It's the norm. Best we get used to it.
Happy new year all!!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Under the Equator
Posts: 605
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think part of the point of the article is being missed.
If the distinction between Business and Economy continues to be blurred as well as the lack of competition - then more and more business travelers will choose economy.
They may well continue to fly QF, then join the Qantas Club, get lounge access and priority baggage etc but at 60% - 70% less per pax ticket.
The premium tickets is where the profit is. So if a little extra pampering, a big fake smile and a few extra cm of room fills every single business seat then it's worth it.
If the distinction between Business and Economy continues to be blurred as well as the lack of competition - then more and more business travelers will choose economy.
They may well continue to fly QF, then join the Qantas Club, get lounge access and priority baggage etc but at 60% - 70% less per pax ticket.
The premium tickets is where the profit is. So if a little extra pampering, a big fake smile and a few extra cm of room fills every single business seat then it's worth it.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 756
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
R-F-G.......
If premium tickets is where QF makes its money on domestic then why are they taking J class off of some a/c and telling employees that "J class is losing money..."?
It is my understanding that premium classes pay for themselves on longhaul routes but domestic is very different. The number of people that actually pay a premium for J class seats, especially on routes outside the BNE, SYD, MEL triangle (and maybe PER) is alarmingly low. A lot of it is regrades of various types. I am not saying that regrades are bad but they don't make the airline money all the same.
You would think that if J class was working on domestic then there would be a lot more seats and greater pitch/amenities. Qantas aren't stupid. If there was moeny to be made from J class then they would do it. And by adding four extra J class seats (by way of the centre seats - there are only four!) on the A330s they are infact trying to make money on a poorly performing product.
If premium tickets is where QF makes its money on domestic then why are they taking J class off of some a/c and telling employees that "J class is losing money..."?
It is my understanding that premium classes pay for themselves on longhaul routes but domestic is very different. The number of people that actually pay a premium for J class seats, especially on routes outside the BNE, SYD, MEL triangle (and maybe PER) is alarmingly low. A lot of it is regrades of various types. I am not saying that regrades are bad but they don't make the airline money all the same.
You would think that if J class was working on domestic then there would be a lot more seats and greater pitch/amenities. Qantas aren't stupid. If there was moeny to be made from J class then they would do it. And by adding four extra J class seats (by way of the centre seats - there are only four!) on the A330s they are infact trying to make money on a poorly performing product.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Darwin
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I think the businessman pays that bit extra and wants that extra service and comfort and 'three across' doesn't give you extra comfort," Mr Hoffmann said.
He said business-class travellers relied on additional space to work while travelling interstate.
As has already been said, airlines are in it to make a buck, so it would be uneconomical in a widebody to have just a 2x2x2 configuration.
I'll give you a tip Phil http://www.pht.com.au - if you so dislike the A330 set up, why don't you and all your businessmen just stick to the abundant 737 services that exist ex ADL that all have a 2x2 J class config???
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Under the Equator
Posts: 605
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Ditzy;
I didn't realise that QF Business lost $$. However, it must be better now that QF are now the sole supplier of Premium seats in this country.
My wife and I sometimes (rarely) use QF Business domestically.
Personally, the centre seat of an A330 would not worry me - but overall, if the standard of service in Business fell and the difference between Economy and Business became 'blurred' then I would choose Economy with a Qantas Club membership.
I didn't realise that QF Business lost $$. However, it must be better now that QF are now the sole supplier of Premium seats in this country.
My wife and I sometimes (rarely) use QF Business domestically.
Personally, the centre seat of an A330 would not worry me - but overall, if the standard of service in Business fell and the difference between Economy and Business became 'blurred' then I would choose Economy with a Qantas Club membership.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Stuck in the middle...
Posts: 1,638
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Zeke -
maybe the journo is getting confused with some low-mileage, one-owner, never-been-driven 'busses once destined for a carrier to our north... maybe there's something in that post about trading in the '30s for some 777s??!! (we live in hope!)
happy new year all
maybe the journo is getting confused with some low-mileage, one-owner, never-been-driven 'busses once destined for a carrier to our north... maybe there's something in that post about trading in the '30s for some 777s??!! (we live in hope!)
happy new year all
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As of today, (2 Jan) our customers will start to see a difference in both economy and business class, well on Perth cityflyer services anyway. Worth mentioning that service standards on other routes are all currently under review.
Basically, on all flights to Perth, ex Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney, an international style of service will be offered.
Economy: Menus with a choice of hot meals, icecream, comp beer and wine in economy after midday, new style meal trays with larger portions, including the use of glass salad bowls and stainless steel cutlery. A second service or wakeup service will also be offered dependent on time of day.
Business: Energiser drinks prior to meal service, dependent on time of day. Dedicated bar service. Choice of three hots, or a cold option. Improved wine selections. Second/wakeup service. Domestic travellers will also experience the "traymobile" on B747/B767/A330 aircraft. Heaps of other new and improved features, cant remember them all.
Good on you Qantas, great for our customers, a really positive step in the right direction.
Basically, on all flights to Perth, ex Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney, an international style of service will be offered.
Economy: Menus with a choice of hot meals, icecream, comp beer and wine in economy after midday, new style meal trays with larger portions, including the use of glass salad bowls and stainless steel cutlery. A second service or wakeup service will also be offered dependent on time of day.
Business: Energiser drinks prior to meal service, dependent on time of day. Dedicated bar service. Choice of three hots, or a cold option. Improved wine selections. Second/wakeup service. Domestic travellers will also experience the "traymobile" on B747/B767/A330 aircraft. Heaps of other new and improved features, cant remember them all.
Good on you Qantas, great for our customers, a really positive step in the right direction.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In Frozen Chunks (Cloud Cuckoo Land)
Age: 17
Posts: 1,521
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All they need now is friendly, willing to work cabin crew! (not the "chuck the food at pax ASAP and take long breaks, and save some meals for ourselves type of service" that we are all used to). (of course some cabin crew are excellent, but that appears to be the exception rather than the rule)
Maybe they should take a leaf out of singapore airlines book on service.
Maybe they should take a leaf out of singapore airlines book on service.
The Reverend
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Sydney,NSW,Australia
Posts: 2,020
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe they should take a leaf out of singapore airlines book on service.
What's this hype about the A 330 anyhow, lots of airlines have been operating this type for years now?
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Nothing new in what you have written, Bodum.
ALL of that -and more - used to be "standard issue" for domestic pax until the early '90's.
Simply re-inventing the wheel.
But no doubt it took some highly paid, "innovative" managers, to come up with the re-hashed hash menus!
I guess the next "Firsts" will be linen tablecloths and napkins, and champagne before hors d'euvres, followed by cheese and port after mains.
Worldwide passengers have had a HUGE reduction in the benefits they used to receive - benefits that cost only a couple of dollars per pax - but at no reduction in their ticket prices.
Service and SAFETY has declined CONSIDERABLY because of the severe reductions in cabin crew (whilst all the while maintaining, or even INCREASING, the number of ground-bound desk jockeys..."empire building" is a fairly apt term!).
The number of NON-REVENUE PRODUCING staff at most airlines is now out of control - and these have been supported by the slf's at their OWN expense.
Now that competition has been whittled down (especially since 911), and airlines are fighting for a bigger share of the market (to survive), they are starting to give back to pax some of the services they had enjoyed for a long time.
With REVENUE PRODUCING staff trimmed to the bone, and the previous "niceities" returned, it's time to SERIOUSLY look at the vastly inflated NRP's parasiting off the airline!
ALL of that -and more - used to be "standard issue" for domestic pax until the early '90's.
Simply re-inventing the wheel.
But no doubt it took some highly paid, "innovative" managers, to come up with the re-hashed hash menus!
I guess the next "Firsts" will be linen tablecloths and napkins, and champagne before hors d'euvres, followed by cheese and port after mains.
Worldwide passengers have had a HUGE reduction in the benefits they used to receive - benefits that cost only a couple of dollars per pax - but at no reduction in their ticket prices.
Service and SAFETY has declined CONSIDERABLY because of the severe reductions in cabin crew (whilst all the while maintaining, or even INCREASING, the number of ground-bound desk jockeys..."empire building" is a fairly apt term!).
The number of NON-REVENUE PRODUCING staff at most airlines is now out of control - and these have been supported by the slf's at their OWN expense.
Now that competition has been whittled down (especially since 911), and airlines are fighting for a bigger share of the market (to survive), they are starting to give back to pax some of the services they had enjoyed for a long time.
With REVENUE PRODUCING staff trimmed to the bone, and the previous "niceities" returned, it's time to SERIOUSLY look at the vastly inflated NRP's parasiting off the airline!
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Stuck in the middle...
Posts: 1,638
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Bodum -
You mention the introduction of STAINLESS STEEL cutlery??!!
I thought that was consigned to history on 12 September 01 and that there had even been pushes to disallow glass??
Sure seems to be the trend elsewhere.
You mention the introduction of STAINLESS STEEL cutlery??!!
I thought that was consigned to history on 12 September 01 and that there had even been pushes to disallow glass??
Sure seems to be the trend elsewhere.
