Zero Tolerance On '89. Period.
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Zero Tolerance On '89. Period.
It is now coming up to 12 years since that year.
The major players with perhaps the odd exception are now either dead, out of business or have moved on.
You will all have your own ideas about who the above may be from your own perspective and the consequences for each and everyone from either side are now well and truly known.
The demise of Ansett and the search for reemployment is now well and truly a matter of fact.
The consequences and effects on all the participants from that event are now known.
There is little now that any of us can say or do to change the result or the minds of the participants from either side.
Each knows who the other is and they can deal with that at a personal level.
Whether it is deserved or not will be written by the historians and what they say will as is usual be debated.
PPRuNe and the Internet have demonstrated that there is now a level playing field as far as information exchange is concerned.
Everyone’s behaviour is now transparent and requires a higher level of conduct than was previously necessary, it is much harder for puffery and obfuscation to survive.
This does not mean that civility and common decency should not also prevail.
I was hoping that I would not have to take this action, however;
Until Further Notice any reference to ’89 by anyone, in other than strict historical terms or from either side aimed at the other or even by oblique reference will be deleted and if the poster continues that behaviour, he will be warned. The penalty for continual transgression will result in total banning.
I am a little tired of my inbox being full of the tit for tat, even when it may be justified.
There are too many other very important current aviation issues that need our professional attention to allow this Forum to be so further diverted.
I will not be taking prisoners.
Any one got any problems with that???
The major players with perhaps the odd exception are now either dead, out of business or have moved on.
You will all have your own ideas about who the above may be from your own perspective and the consequences for each and everyone from either side are now well and truly known.
The demise of Ansett and the search for reemployment is now well and truly a matter of fact.
The consequences and effects on all the participants from that event are now known.
There is little now that any of us can say or do to change the result or the minds of the participants from either side.
Each knows who the other is and they can deal with that at a personal level.
Whether it is deserved or not will be written by the historians and what they say will as is usual be debated.
PPRuNe and the Internet have demonstrated that there is now a level playing field as far as information exchange is concerned.
Everyone’s behaviour is now transparent and requires a higher level of conduct than was previously necessary, it is much harder for puffery and obfuscation to survive.
This does not mean that civility and common decency should not also prevail.
I was hoping that I would not have to take this action, however;
Until Further Notice any reference to ’89 by anyone, in other than strict historical terms or from either side aimed at the other or even by oblique reference will be deleted and if the poster continues that behaviour, he will be warned. The penalty for continual transgression will result in total banning.
I am a little tired of my inbox being full of the tit for tat, even when it may be justified.
There are too many other very important current aviation issues that need our professional attention to allow this Forum to be so further diverted.
I will not be taking prisoners.
Any one got any problems with that???
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Woomerra ………… this sounds like the Nazi or Japanese version of history. You cannot change the facts or history ! Like it or hate it ….. this is history !!!!!!!!
It will never go away, I was fortunate / unfortunate enough to work with many Continental / Eastern / Pan Am pilots over the years. If you in your simplistic way think that by banning reference to that horrible unmentionable year will make will make things right … god help us. Publish this and remove me from your site ….. god help us all …. Just absolutely pathetic !
It will never go away, I was fortunate / unfortunate enough to work with many Continental / Eastern / Pan Am pilots over the years. If you in your simplistic way think that by banning reference to that horrible unmentionable year will make will make things right … god help us. Publish this and remove me from your site ….. god help us all …. Just absolutely pathetic !
You are right Snowballs. I get a very uneasy feeling. What's next, maybe the Newcastle Earthquake?
Also, EWL, the hatchet being buried implies a mutually agreed peace. Don't you mean opinions being buried?
Also, EWL, the hatchet being buried implies a mutually agreed peace. Don't you mean opinions being buried?
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Weomera
I very lucky to spend much time in your very great country. I have the very great privilege to work with many wonderful great Ozzie pilots who were badly hurt by what happened in you so called unmentionable 89. You politicize this forum by banning “what you call unmentionable” This is a very very sad day indeed. Someone mention above you cannot deny history. Reconciliation is very painful and very long time if you do. How do you think younger people like self feel living with a father who think some of the tings he did we very honorable when they were a great shame to real people who care for people regardless. Honour has no price if it is honourable !
I very lucky to spend much time in your very great country. I have the very great privilege to work with many wonderful great Ozzie pilots who were badly hurt by what happened in you so called unmentionable 89. You politicize this forum by banning “what you call unmentionable” This is a very very sad day indeed. Someone mention above you cannot deny history. Reconciliation is very painful and very long time if you do. How do you think younger people like self feel living with a father who think some of the tings he did we very honorable when they were a great shame to real people who care for people regardless. Honour has no price if it is honourable !
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Yeah, it gets a bit tedious at times, but on the other hand the Internet (meaning PPRuNe, as far as pilots are concerned, finally gave us - the "Federation pilots", who were FORCED to leave Australia, if we wished to continue airline flying) the opportunity to voice OUR version of events.
And yes, PPRuNe was deluged with '89.
But the reason was we had effectively been silenced for so many years, and ONLY the version of "I did for my family"
could at last be revealed for its fallaciousness.
At that time, almost 80% of ALL of Australia's domsetic pilots believed that the CAUSE for which they stood firm was in the interests of not only themselves, but also future pilots.
Some comments on PPrUne have really left ME wondering if the stand we took was worth it for the current pilots - I hope so.
For me personally, it cost a lot in career, personal, and monetary terms - I had to forgo my upgrade to the lhs by some 6 years, I lost three friends - one very close to me, and my family - and $$$-wise...well, water under the bridge.
In hindsight would I do it again, given the choice? YES!
Woomera, I think that Brian Mac, J.R., Holty, T. O'C, Coxy, Jimmy Bow Tie, The Silver Budgie and a few others might be astounded to learn that:
PPRuNe allowed 1989 to at last be brought out into the open, aired, and discussed.
For sure there was a lot of "effervesence", but the cork had been firmly wedged into the orifice for a loooong time!!
Thank you PPRuNe.!!
And yes, PPRuNe was deluged with '89.
But the reason was we had effectively been silenced for so many years, and ONLY the version of "I did for my family"
could at last be revealed for its fallaciousness.At that time, almost 80% of ALL of Australia's domsetic pilots believed that the CAUSE for which they stood firm was in the interests of not only themselves, but also future pilots.
Some comments on PPrUne have really left ME wondering if the stand we took was worth it for the current pilots - I hope so.
For me personally, it cost a lot in career, personal, and monetary terms - I had to forgo my upgrade to the lhs by some 6 years, I lost three friends - one very close to me, and my family - and $$$-wise...well, water under the bridge.
In hindsight would I do it again, given the choice? YES!
Woomera, I think that Brian Mac, J.R., Holty, T. O'C, Coxy, Jimmy Bow Tie, The Silver Budgie and a few others might be astounded to learn that:
The major players with perhaps the odd exception are now either dead, out of business or have moved on.
For sure there was a lot of "effervesence", but the cork had been firmly wedged into the orifice for a loooong time!!
Thank you PPRuNe.!!
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Well said Kaptain M,
If so many were taking part in 89 topics then its obvious there is a demand for it, Im sure the S...bs will be happy there will be no more forums. Isnt aviation about open two way communication.
Or is freedom of speach not allowed in this democracy.
Its one of the most important events in Oz avaition history, shame on thoses who cant stomach it.
I thought only the big Q banned commenting on S...bs.
If so many were taking part in 89 topics then its obvious there is a demand for it, Im sure the S...bs will be happy there will be no more forums. Isnt aviation about open two way communication.
Or is freedom of speach not allowed in this democracy.
Its one of the most important events in Oz avaition history, shame on thoses who cant stomach it.
I thought only the big Q banned commenting on S...bs.
Aviation is about learning from other peoples' experiences.
I was not far out of high school in 89 so my perspective of the dispute was courtesy of the Murdoch press.
Pprune gave a valuable insight into the views of the different parties. The experiences of 89ers, learn't from these pages, a valuable preparation for the human destruction in last years Ansett turmoil. As events unfolded the actions of management and some unsavourary individuals predictable.
Not at all taking sides but Pprune offered a balance of some sort.
I was not far out of high school in 89 so my perspective of the dispute was courtesy of the Murdoch press.
Pprune gave a valuable insight into the views of the different parties. The experiences of 89ers, learn't from these pages, a valuable preparation for the human destruction in last years Ansett turmoil. As events unfolded the actions of management and some unsavourary individuals predictable.
Not at all taking sides but Pprune offered a balance of some sort.
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This time with the bold more carefully applied, and please read it carefully;
Capiche!
The subject itself hasn't been banned just, as usual, the personal vilification and nonstop sniping at individuals.
I'll say it again;
I am not so naive as to believe that it will just go away, neither should it as a legitimate and pivotal part of our aviation history, but neither should it dominate almost every thread.
Kaptin M
True, and it has been a loooong time in doing so here (I think more than 5 years) as events continued to unfold to the final demise of Ansett. I don't think there are many rocks left unturned on the subject.
Oh and BTW whilst ;
"PPRuNe allowed 1989 to at last be brought out into the open, aired, and discussed"
It is worth noting that PPRuNe was not invented for the sole purpose of that discussion, although in D & G one could get that impression and neither side owns it.
I have been prepared to tolerate some of the "effervesence" from both sides, having regard for the heat in the subject.
However, discussing "body counts" on either side in terms other than as an expression of the human tragedy is not on.
Neither is the continuous slagging off, baiting and thread hijacking that has been going on.
There has been enough hurt and pain inflicted without creating more.
Gnadenberg
Well put.
beerstop
Freedom of speech in a democracy also brings with it a responsibility, it doesn't include the right to vilify or abuse.
Mitsumi
Be assured I understand exactly what you say and I agree, but behaving dishonourably in the support of an honourable cause does not serve honour.
Snowballs
You are just plain out of order.
Hysterical comments in the mode of some censorship conspiracy just aren't fair and mean you haven't been around here long enough.
It would be a mistake on your part were you to assume that I was "simple" or "pathetic".
I'll just choose to believe that you had a momentary lapse of judgement.
I have tried to be fair and balanced and allow both sides free reign whilst they remain civilised, but the posts in this thread suggest that I fight a losing battle, being damned if do and damned if I don’t.
So I have chosen to select Danny’s "Supreme Despot" mode until everyone settles down.
The easier option is to just shut the whole D & G Forum down and you can see how you all get on with ’89 in the Main Forum.
We are about to head into another real shooting war and unless there is a miracle of some sort, a lot of people are going to get hurt.
Neither is there any predictability as to the train of subsequent events.
We are in very uncertain times and there is no guarantee that there will not be another giant upheaval in the aviation business, both locally and internationally such as we daren't even imagine.
We live in even more interesting times.
Just give me a break will ya, I'm the one that has to fix the toys you keep throwing out of the pram.
Until Further Notice any reference to ’89 by anyone, in other than strict historical terms or from either side aimed at the other or even by oblique reference will be deleted and if the poster continues that behaviour, he will be warned. The penalty for continual transgression will result in total banning.
The subject itself hasn't been banned just, as usual, the personal vilification and nonstop sniping at individuals.
I'll say it again;
The demise of Ansett and the search for reemployment is now well and truly a matter of fact.
The consequences and effects on all the participants from that event are now known.
There is little now that any of us can say or do to change the result or the minds of the participants from either side.
The consequences and effects on all the participants from that event are now known.
There is little now that any of us can say or do to change the result or the minds of the participants from either side.
Kaptin M
PPRuNe allowed 1989 to at last be brought out into the open, aired, and discussed.
For sure there was a lot of "effervesence", but the cork had been firmly wedged into the orifice for a loooong time!!
For sure there was a lot of "effervesence", but the cork had been firmly wedged into the orifice for a loooong time!!
Oh and BTW whilst ;
"PPRuNe allowed 1989 to at last be brought out into the open, aired, and discussed"
It is worth noting that PPRuNe was not invented for the sole purpose of that discussion, although in D & G one could get that impression and neither side owns it.
I have been prepared to tolerate some of the "effervesence" from both sides, having regard for the heat in the subject.
However, discussing "body counts" on either side in terms other than as an expression of the human tragedy is not on.
Neither is the continuous slagging off, baiting and thread hijacking that has been going on.
There has been enough hurt and pain inflicted without creating more.
Gnadenberg
Well put.
beerstop
Or is freedom of speach not allowed in this democracy.
Mitsumi
Be assured I understand exactly what you say and I agree, but behaving dishonourably in the support of an honourable cause does not serve honour.
Snowballs
You are just plain out of order.
Hysterical comments in the mode of some censorship conspiracy just aren't fair and mean you haven't been around here long enough.
It would be a mistake on your part were you to assume that I was "simple" or "pathetic".
I'll just choose to believe that you had a momentary lapse of judgement.
I have tried to be fair and balanced and allow both sides free reign whilst they remain civilised, but the posts in this thread suggest that I fight a losing battle, being damned if do and damned if I don’t.
So I have chosen to select Danny’s "Supreme Despot" mode until everyone settles down.
The easier option is to just shut the whole D & G Forum down and you can see how you all get on with ’89 in the Main Forum.
We are about to head into another real shooting war and unless there is a miracle of some sort, a lot of people are going to get hurt.
Neither is there any predictability as to the train of subsequent events.
We are in very uncertain times and there is no guarantee that there will not be another giant upheaval in the aviation business, both locally and internationally such as we daren't even imagine.
We live in even more interesting times.
Just give me a break will ya, I'm the one that has to fix the toys you keep throwing out of the pram.
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Woomera.
I have just one question.
Are you telling us that PPRuNe now subject to censorship?
If so, well R.I.P.
NO and it never was or will be, save for libelous, slanderous, illegal or patently uncivilised or unprofessional behaviour.
I will continue to "censor", personal vituperation, thread hijacking, threats of violence death wishes and any other form of behaviour that goes beyond the pale.
If that offends you then begone, this is clearly not the Forum for you
professional adj.& n. adj. 1 of or belonginfg to or connected with a profession. 2. a having aor showingthe skill of a professional, competent b worthy of a professional (professional conduct)
profession n. 1 a vocation or calling, esp one that involves some branch of advanced learning or science.
I have just one question.
Are you telling us that PPRuNe now subject to censorship?
If so, well R.I.P.
NO and it never was or will be, save for libelous, slanderous, illegal or patently uncivilised or unprofessional behaviour.
I will continue to "censor", personal vituperation, thread hijacking, threats of violence death wishes and any other form of behaviour that goes beyond the pale.
If that offends you then begone, this is clearly not the Forum for you
professional adj.& n. adj. 1 of or belonginfg to or connected with a profession. 2. a having aor showingthe skill of a professional, competent b worthy of a professional (professional conduct)
profession n. 1 a vocation or calling, esp one that involves some branch of advanced learning or science.
Last edited by Woomera; 16th Dec 2002 at 00:14.
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There seems to be a misconception that PPRuNe is somehow supposed to be democratic and about free speech.
It isn't.
It is the creation of one person, who now has a lot more people helping him. He gets to make the rules (and graciously does so in consultation with other moderators), and the rules are the rules (and not open to interpretation).
I don't always agree with the rules, but I absolutely agree with the right of the boss to make and enforce them. All who use this board should respect his wishes.
If you want to keep on endlessly dredging up past (alleged) injustices and (alleged) unfairness, why not start your own BBS where you can argue about it until the cows come home (although even cows would no doubt be sent to sleep by it all). It would never have many members, but it would spare the rest of us the bickering.
It was a bad time, but individuals made their beds, etc. As the Americans say- "get over it" or "get past it".
It isn't.
It is the creation of one person, who now has a lot more people helping him. He gets to make the rules (and graciously does so in consultation with other moderators), and the rules are the rules (and not open to interpretation).
I don't always agree with the rules, but I absolutely agree with the right of the boss to make and enforce them. All who use this board should respect his wishes.
If you want to keep on endlessly dredging up past (alleged) injustices and (alleged) unfairness, why not start your own BBS where you can argue about it until the cows come home (although even cows would no doubt be sent to sleep by it all). It would never have many members, but it would spare the rest of us the bickering.
It was a bad time, but individuals made their beds, etc. As the Americans say- "get over it" or "get past it".
Moderator
PPRuNe is certainly not without censorship .. that is one of the roles of the mods and admins. However, from what I see, in general and in D&G in particular, the level of censorship is VERY muted and restrained except when things start to get a little too far over the top.
Danny et al appear to be accommodating and accepting in this regard .. we are all very fortunate to have this site as a vehicle for discussion ... BUT ... there is a responsibility to be a little bit circumspect at times ... both in regard to normal civility and the potential for litigation at the other end of the Kangaroo Route.
While I have no involvement with D&G other than as an interested bystander, I think it is fair to suggest that the Woomera team collectively exercises extreme restraint at times ... in regard to the unpleasantness of '89 ... something along the lines of occasional posts trying the patience of Saints comes to mind .....
Danny et al appear to be accommodating and accepting in this regard .. we are all very fortunate to have this site as a vehicle for discussion ... BUT ... there is a responsibility to be a little bit circumspect at times ... both in regard to normal civility and the potential for litigation at the other end of the Kangaroo Route.
While I have no involvement with D&G other than as an interested bystander, I think it is fair to suggest that the Woomera team collectively exercises extreme restraint at times ... in regard to the unpleasantness of '89 ... something along the lines of occasional posts trying the patience of Saints comes to mind .....
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As I see it, the issue would not have surfaced at all, if not for that "list"and so denying opportunities to those on that list to obtain another flying job after the Ansett collapse...there are people on that list that had nothing to do with the events described are on, others as by the rules of the perpetrators of that list should be on and are not, the bitterness come out because of the "get even" factor perpetuated by those who lost by the event of 13 years ago and channelled it at the wrong people, I say the easy targets, we all know which airlines around Asia the Middle East and of course Australia who won't look at certain people, and why.....? we know why!! This is why it raised its ugly head Woomera, until we can get on with life and find another flying job without this discrimination, it will never go away.......
Last edited by Richard Kranium; 18th Dec 2002 at 13:45.
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Captain M
While I salute your dedication to the cause, I think the price you paid was way too high for the ideal. Really a family, mates and career.....
Take a step back look at the scenario in a non emotional light.
The workers tried to screw the airline and in turn the public. The game plan was flawed as was the size of the ambit claim.
The gamble failed, you lost right or wrong .. and the workers got screwed.... Live by the sword-die by the sword.
Now if this was a gamble at the race track I doubt you would still be bitter about it. Learn and move on.
To say you would do it again, knowing the out come is ludicrous.
pirg
While I salute your dedication to the cause, I think the price you paid was way too high for the ideal. Really a family, mates and career.....
Take a step back look at the scenario in a non emotional light.
The workers tried to screw the airline and in turn the public. The game plan was flawed as was the size of the ambit claim.
The gamble failed, you lost right or wrong .. and the workers got screwed.... Live by the sword-die by the sword.
Now if this was a gamble at the race track I doubt you would still be bitter about it. Learn and move on.
To say you would do it again, knowing the out come is ludicrous.
pirg
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The purpose of this thread was to reiterate a continuation or hardening up of what has always been our policy in regard to ANY subject, not to start another discussion.
'89 is very obviously and will remain, a very open wound for many of us for a long time.
It is NOT my job to decide which way or who was right, other than keep it under the bounds of civilised control.
It is NOT my intention to debate the issue, nor is it necessary for ME to be convinced of the "rightness or not" of either case.
My ONLY job is to keep it civil and within the bounds of decency required by the rules and the "Ten Thingies".
I am closing this thread because it is already starting up again, if you want to continue the discussion then you know how it's done.
I would invite you to reflect on john_tullamarine and Raw Datas ' posts.
They are both experienced and respected Moderators in their respective Forums.
'89 is very obviously and will remain, a very open wound for many of us for a long time.
It is NOT my job to decide which way or who was right, other than keep it under the bounds of civilised control.
It is NOT my intention to debate the issue, nor is it necessary for ME to be convinced of the "rightness or not" of either case.
My ONLY job is to keep it civil and within the bounds of decency required by the rules and the "Ten Thingies".
I am closing this thread because it is already starting up again, if you want to continue the discussion then you know how it's done.
I would invite you to reflect on john_tullamarine and Raw Datas ' posts.
They are both experienced and respected Moderators in their respective Forums.