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Old 5th Jan 2024, 02:25
  #1521 (permalink)  
 
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So I’m both a new hire F/O and a management pilot and
Actually he did not call you a new hire, he said, "enjoy your new job", meaning you are probably leaving. That is how I read it.

Did you acknowledge and correct your maths error by the way?
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 04:20
  #1522 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
Actually he did not call you a new hire, he said, "enjoy your new job", meaning you are probably leaving. That is how I read it.

Did you acknowledge and correct your maths error by the way?
I acknowledged it yes and asked the person who pointed it out if they wanted me to publish the updated figures which they declined.
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 04:38
  #1523 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by soseg
Are you stupid?

I said you will be earning 68% of what a 737 FO earns per hour. Youíre a captain arenít you? Whatís so hard to understand?

Like talking to a wall. Enjoy your peasant hourly rate captain ibis
Yeah so youíre looking at one clause in isolation. Iíd prefer to look at what I will gross and what parts of that gross figure can be guaranteed. I also look at how hard I have to work for that amount and what protections are being offered in the proposed deal vs the current one to determine what I want to do for myself.

Keep calling me names Iím hope it is making you feel better.
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 05:51
  #1524 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by I Need Of A Change
Yeah so youíre looking at one clause in isolation. Iíd prefer to look at what I will gross and what parts of that gross figure can be guaranteed. I also look at how hard I have to work for that amount and what protections are being offered in the proposed deal vs the current one to determine what I want to do for myself.

Keep calling me names Iím hope it is making you feel better.
Vote the way you want, as itís good for you INOAC. Salutations.
Seeing as youíre determined not to improve Ts&Cs for your fellow pilots - because youíre alright Jack - how bout doing the rest of us a soild?. Weíre all in an ďI need of a change of effen recordĒÖso why not f&^k off and leave this thread be.

Again, vote the way you want, but stop gaslighting and antagonising people - families and careers are at stake, and NW is a test case for the rest of this f$%ked up industry.
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 05:53
  #1525 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by twentyelevens
Vote the way you want, as itís good for you INOAC. Salutations.
Seeing as youíre determined not to improve Ts&Cs for your fellow pilots - because youíre alright Jack - how bout doing the rest of us a soild?. Weíre all in an ďI need of a change of effen recordĒÖso why not f&^k off and leave this thread be.

Again, vote the way you want, but stop gaslighting and antagonising people - families and careers are at stake, and NW is a test case for the rest of this f$%ked up industry.
Ok so you want all the Network pilots and the impact it has to go to IB on them and their families to be a test case for you?
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 06:04
  #1526 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by I Need Of A Change
Ok so you want all the Network pilots and the impact it has to go to IB on them and their families to be a test case for you?
No I just want you to piss off.
For the third time, you do you champ, vote the way you want. You’re not changing minds here, just antagonising and gas-ligting people with some serious interests at stake - industry wide. Furthermore you appear to be getting some sick pleasure from it. Honestly, with that type of sociopathic behaviour, if you’re not management, why not - you’d fit right in.
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 06:17
  #1527 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by twentyelevens
No I just want you to piss off.
For the third time, you do you champ, vote the way you want. Youíre not changing minds here, just antagonising and gas-ligting people with some serious interests at stake - industry wide. Furthermore you appear to be getting some sick pleasure from it. Honestly, with that type of sociopathic behaviour, if youíre not management, why not - youíd fit right in.
I am not here trying to change anyoneís vote. I hope everyone votes on the deal as a whole. Plenty here are pushing a no vote Iím simply providing some counter to their statements which Iím entirely aloud to do.

If you donít want to read what I post on here. Donít read the thread.

Sick pleasure? No Iím just not intimated by the name calling or attempts to silence anyone who doesnít support a no vote.
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 06:57
  #1528 (permalink)  
 
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Base salary is base salary and if it you're getting a half decent increase then great.
This has nothing to do with like-for-like comparisons. What I don't understand is how you can not have enough self worth to accept that you'll be paid at half rate when you go into OT. That clause alone is enough that I wouldn't wipe my a$$ with the paper this deal is written on. Because that screams opportunity for exploitation, and they will abuse you to the full extent that you have allowed them to, if and when they require it.
"If they're not doing it now, then why would they do it on a more restrictive EA?"
NOT THE POINT. They WILL do it when they have contractual obligations to fulfill, or suffer severe financial penalties, and limited crew to to fulfill them. All because you agreed to an EA that allows it.
It should come as no surprise to anybody though. The biggest opportunity in a generation to induce change industry wide, and you're going to completely blow it. In times of crisis, every man for himself. It's the Australian way.
Your fear of IB is unwarranted, and is congruent with political fear-mongering. You've absolutely nothing to lose by going into IB since you're on such a sh!ite deal currently, as any deal at goes through still has to pass the BOOT test.
But hey, at least you've got those 400-hour years in your spank bank. You're going to need them when you're doing minimum 75 hours a roster in the months after this gets up. And if you're not, then good on you. But no way in hell is that a gamble I would be taking by voting yes to this.
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 07:13
  #1529 (permalink)  
 
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I Need Of A Change needs his name changed to Stockholm Syndrome.
I Need Of A Change is either a Network management pilot or a Qantas IR stooge.
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 07:13
  #1530 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by plotplot
Base salary is base salary and if it you're getting a half decent increase then great.
This has nothing to do with like-for-like comparisons. What I don't understand is how you can not have enough self worth to accept that you'll be paid at half rate when you go into OT. That clause alone is enough that I wouldn't wipe my a$$ with the paper this deal is written on. Because that screams opportunity for exploitation, and they will abuse you to the full extent that you have allowed them to, if and when they require it.
"If they're not doing it now, then why would they do it on a more restrictive EA?"
NOT THE POINT. They WILL do it when they have contractual obligations to fulfill, or suffer severe financial penalties, and limited crew to to fulfill them. All because you agreed to an EA that allows it.
It should come as no surprise to anybody though. The biggest opportunity in a generation to induce change industry wide, and you're going to completely blow it. In times of crisis, every man for himself. It's the Australian way.
Your fear of IB is unwarranted, and is congruent with political fear-mongering. You've absolutely nothing to lose by going into IB since you're on such a sh!ite deal currently, as any deal at goes through still has to pass the BOOT test.
But hey, at least you've got those 400-hour years in your spank bank. You're going to need them when you're doing minimum 75 hours a roster in the months after this gets up. And if you're not, then good on you. But no way in hell is that a gamble I would be taking by voting yes to this.
To some of your points can I ask why then that over the past couple of years there have been several flights cancelled that may well have large financial penalties and flying turned down due to crew numbers? If it was so easy to roster overtime and cover all that they would of I agree, but this situation has occurred over and over and yet only a small percentage of crew are in productivity (some by choice who are after the hours for whatever reason).

The crap rate for overtime is a continuation of the current deal with the change that the rate increases after 75 hours which is a deterrent from the current deal. Additionally the rate kicks in at a lower threshold which is of zero advantage to the company.

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Old 5th Jan 2024, 07:32
  #1531 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by I Need Of A Change
I am not here trying to change anyone’s vote.
Yet here you are, post after post, singing the same tune, replying to every post. We get it, you’re voting yes. Do so and move on eh?

Originally Posted by I Need Of A Change
if you don’t want to read what I post on here. Don’t read the thread.
Yep, management - ‘the thread is entirely populated with my wonderful and erudite postings - no need to read anything else’.` How inclusive of you. I’ll say it again, if you’re not management, why not?
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 07:48
  #1532 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by plotplot
Your fear of IB is unwarranted, and is congruent with political fear-mongering. You've absolutely nothing to lose by going into IB since you're on such a sh!ite deal currently, as any deal at goes through still has to pass the BOOT test.
.
Itís hard to know whether fear of IB bargaining is either warranted or not, because there are no examples of how this will actually play out in the Commission yet. What is absolutely known is control of your EA is now taken away from the bargaining reps and given to a Commissioner. That to me certainly sounds like rolling the dice. Now who knows, if it does go to IB bargaining, the Commission could agree with you all of the absurdity of an overtime rate of half your Ďnormalí rate, but they may not.

And there is no guarantee that the deal the Commissioner comes up with is better than whatís on offer now.

Finally itís probably worth reminding that the BOOT test compares the proposed agreement to the Air Pilots Award (where there isnít even a concept of minimum hours and extra earnings if you do 70/80/90 hour rosters).
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 08:05
  #1533 (permalink)  
 
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Hey Colonel, not sure if it’s happened yet, but weren’t Labour going to change the BOOT to your current working conditions. Vaguely remember them banging on about not going all the way back to the Award after years, sometimes decades of EA’s. Can someone enlighten us please…….
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 08:16
  #1534 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Klink
Finally itís probably worth reminding that the BOOT test compares the proposed agreement to the Air Pilots Award (where there isnít even a concept of minimum hours and extra earnings if you do 70/80/90 hour rosters).
"An intractable bargaining worklplace determination must include agreed terms and core or mandatory terms.
Agreed terms are terms that the bargaining representatives for the proposed agreement have already agreed should be included."
In other terms for those of lower comprehension levels; if you agreed to a higher base salary, that's not what is getting disputed in an intractable bargaining declaration. If you disagreed on being paid at half pay in overtime, that is.
I'm sure the union left that out when they put the fear in you by saying the entire EA is at stake if you let it go to IB.
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 08:30
  #1535 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by I Need Of A Change
To some of your points can I ask why then that over the past couple of years there have been several flights cancelled that may well have large financial penalties and flying turned down due to crew numbers? If it was so easy to roster overtime and cover all that they would of I agree, but this situation has occurred over and over and yet only a small percentage of crew are in productivity (some by choice who are after the hours for whatever reason).

The crap rate for overtime is a continuation of the current deal with the change that the rate increases after 75 hours which is a deterrent from the current deal. Additionally the rate kicks in at a lower threshold which is of zero advantage to the company.
There must be some reason the company is pushing for a new agreement. I can only imagine itís due to concerns from clients about recruitment and retention- they are not stupid and would recognise the risks presented to their industry from any unstable supplier. I can only go by the experience levels of the crew Iím now flying with to suggest that we do have a crewing problem (no disrespect to them, Iíve had no issues with anyone and they are mainly great people) and this offer feels very much like an effort by the company to kick the can down the road. There could be any number of intervening factors but if current conditions remain this wonít fix the problem and there are many ways an understaffed base can impact crew as much as it could the company, so I do see significant increases in duty hours on the horizon.

HBA, ADL and BNE to the Pilbara would also do it, and the rumours of those duties seems to have a strong whiff of truth about it. The change that has made these duties possible came with the cabin crew agreement which I think is the biggest reason we havenít done them until now. That the company is holding off now probably comes down to an offer being on the table and not wanting to affect the outcome. Would you still say that our hours will remain roughly the same if those duties get added to the mix?
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 08:38
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Originally Posted by walesregent
Would you still say that our hours will remain roughly the same if those duties get added to the mix?
I would agree if those duties are introduced the average hours would go up. However if Iím doing those duties who is flying the ones Iím currently operating? If they are BOC duties then again who will be flying the ones during the day that I currently am doing?
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 08:46
  #1537 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by plotplot
"An intractable bargaining worklplace determination must include agreed terms and core or mandatory terms.
Agreed terms are terms that the bargaining representatives for the proposed agreement have already agreed should be included."
In other terms for those of lower comprehension levels; if you agreed to a higher base salary, that's not what is getting disputed in an intractable bargaining declaration. If you disagreed on being paid at half pay in overtime, that is.
I'm sure the union left that out when they put the fear in you by saying the entire EA is at stake if you let it go to IB.
So of it does go all the way to IB and the overtime rate was double or tripled thatís great.

The potential cost of zero back pay and the impact that would have for lost income over that period in addition to the current back pay period is a significant one and the compound interest on a mortgage and lack or super contributions over that period add up.

These things are all rather unknown and this creates uncertainty. How many customers does the airline loose in that period because no one wants to sign a deal with an unknown workforce cost. How many pilots donít join because they have no idea what conditions they will be forced onto or when.

This isnít fear, itís people making a choice to accept the unknown and all that may or may not come with it or accept the know of the deal on offer inclusive of the known downsides to the deal against the unknown downsides of the IB path.
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 09:14
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Originally Posted by I Need Of A Change
I would agree if those duties are introduced the average hours would go up. However if Iím doing those duties who is flying the ones Iím currently operating? If they are BOC duties then again who will be flying the ones during the day that I currently am doing?
At the moment my lifestyle is ok, and until the last week or so have kept a lot of reserves and had a lot of reserves on my roster. I feel like I could be Ďoptimisedí quite a bit by the addition of 4 sector days and travel patterns. I agree that with the bulk of our work falling on the mornings of three weekdays there are a few limitations for maximising crew productivity but there is plenty of time outside of that for the company to have a red hot go at it- VARA seemed to manage it with red centre patterns.
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 09:18
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Originally Posted by I Need Of A Change
I would agree if those duties are introduced the average hours would go up. However if Iím doing those duties who is flying the ones Iím currently operating? If they are BOC duties then again who will be flying the ones during the day that I currently am doing?
I thought you said in a previous post that Jetstar was reopening the Perth base. Or are they no longer a threat to us now?
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Old 5th Jan 2024, 09:20
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Originally Posted by I Need Of A Change
The potential cost of zero back pay and the impact that would have for lost income over that period in addition to the current back pay period is a significant one and the compound interest on a mortgage and lack or super contributions over that period add up.
Is there a clause in the proposed EA along the lines of, "On commencement of this agreement, pilots employed by the employer at the date of operation of this agreement will become entitled to back payment as follows."
Because if there is, and both parties have agreed to it, it's not up for dispute in IB. So is there?

Originally Posted by I Need Of A Change
These things are all rather unknown and this creates uncertainty. How many customers does the airline loose in that period because no one wants to sign a deal with an unknown workforce cost. How many pilots donít join because they have no idea what conditions they will be forced onto or when.
.
In what period? The few months after this goes into IB? Workforce cost means jack sh!t to a customer. The price of the contract is the price of the contract. Attracting crew is the least of their worries, when they're on the verge of scraping the bottom of the barrel already. These are moot points.
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