Fire Fighting 737 Crashed in WA
Originally Posted by peuce
Just a bit of info for those wondering why the tanker was there at all. The Fitzgerald River National Park is a UNESCO Biosphere. The Park contains 75 species of plant that are seen no where else in the world. I can tell you, if you ever visit it, you'll see some weird and wacky flora. So, apart from ensuring the fire didn't spread to nearby communities, and mining interests, the Park itself is probably worth protecting.
Originally Posted by logansi
Ever since the Black Saturday Royal Commission there has been an big focus in Australia on keeping fires small and hitting them hard as fast. It's why Victoria now uses what is called PDD (Pre-determined dispatch) where aircraft are deployed to all Grass and Scrub fires at the same time as the first truck. (If you call 000 an aircraft will respond).
LATs play this role by hitting fires in remote country and helping contain them before they are a threat to property. Just this year the Victorian LATs (an RJ85 and Q400) have been deployed multiple times to lightning strike fires in the Big Desert National park in the states NW. And have in the past been used on tiny fires (less than a few sqm) in remote alpine areas in the far east. They also become cost-effective when the reduce the number of flights required by Air tractors and commitment of ground resources.
LATs play this role by hitting fires in remote country and helping contain them before they are a threat to property. Just this year the Victorian LATs (an RJ85 and Q400) have been deployed multiple times to lightning strike fires in the Big Desert National park in the states NW. And have in the past been used on tiny fires (less than a few sqm) in remote alpine areas in the far east. They also become cost-effective when the reduce the number of flights required by Air tractors and commitment of ground resources.
Let me first say there are tasks for all the aerial resources currently in Australia if they are used to the aircraft capabilities.
I'll dispute the last point you made.
I have seen Lat's used (Up close) and seen their capabilities. I have seen times when Lat's only were used, a 1.5 hour turn around back to the fire. SEAT's were available and not used, the turnaround for SEAT's usually anything up to half an hour because of closer airstrips. On this occasion I recall the SEAT could have had a 5 minute turn around carrying a third of the Lat. load. To me it just didn't make sense. I have also seen many times where Seat's were called to solidify a line laid by Lat's, most of the lines I have seen done by Lat's were light on. Going too far with a drop instead of concentrating the drop more. The drop setting was not high enough with either retardant or foam/water. There is one exception to that and it was the DC 10 (VLAT), the drops I saw with it were always heavy enough and laid down a good retardant line with reinforcement not needed. It might be something to do with the load it carried at 40,000 litres, 4 times more than the loads Lat's work with at a similar or slightly more running cost to the much smaller large air tankers.
Another thing I have seen is where SEAT's were held out while the Lat's set up and dropped their load, anything up to 20 minutes or on one occasion 40 minutes. The SEAT's were operating out of a close airstrip with 10 minute turn around, there were 4 seats. Seemed to be counter productive when the 4 SEAT's could deliver more than the Lat's load in a fraction of the time. The Air Attack supervisor is also a critical cog in the wheel, a good one the aerial side runs seamlessly. A not so competent one can be worse than none.
As I said if assets are used to the full capability it's a good system, that's not always the case.
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Originally Posted by Johnny Cash IBE
I was always taught native Australian flora required bush fires to multiply.
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I get a kick out of people who have never done aerial firefighting weighing in with helpful suggestions.
Last edited by Australopithecus; 8th Feb 2023 at 04:08.
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus
I get a kick out of people who have never done aerial firefighting weighing in with helpful suggestions.
Originally Posted by finestkind
Sorry, I missed them. Where are the helpful suggestions?
Originally Posted by Cedrik
Yes a cool burn, a scorching red hot fire and some country never recovers to it's previous state. You only have to look at some of the high country fires from years ago, some areas now are just low scrub with dead trees as far as the eye can see. Previously they was vibrant tall timber to ferns and everything in between, now decimated.
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It certainly didn’t ‘slide’ very far.
Originally Posted by Johnny Cash IBE
probably because it was only doing 100kts
Australopithecus, to quote you
"Well, I particularly liked the idea of cramming two observers onto the flight deck who would of course be unable to observe anything useful. Sharpening up a risk assessment gets an honourable mention too. Putzes."
Mate how about while the two pilots are heads outside aiming up the bombing run, the observers are watching over the inside and maybe, just maybe saying "guys you're 10 knots above the stall at idle thrust."
I'd consider that "useful observation" myself. Putz.
"Well, I particularly liked the idea of cramming two observers onto the flight deck who would of course be unable to observe anything useful. Sharpening up a risk assessment gets an honourable mention too. Putzes."
Mate how about while the two pilots are heads outside aiming up the bombing run, the observers are watching over the inside and maybe, just maybe saying "guys you're 10 knots above the stall at idle thrust."
I'd consider that "useful observation" myself. Putz.
Originally Posted by Johnny Cash IBE
I was always taught native Australian flora required bush fires to multiply.
Originally Posted by Eclan
Yes but this fire was in WA where the flora, much like the population, is feral and scrubby growth which breeds back twice as fast as it's cut down. Have you seen the photos? There might be some sort of unique west aussie weed there the locals adore but no one else knows or cares about it because it's about as interesting an organism as a canker. Don't worry, it'll bounce back thicker than before. This park is WA's floral equivalent of bogen central and this sort of uncouth scrub can't be suppressed for long even with flame.
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Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay
Totally separate issues. This 737 is fvcked and will never fly again. QF1 was repaired beyond its wirth to maintain the myth.
Originally Posted by FullOppositeRudder
And we managed to drown a Skycrane in Victoria in January 2019
A safety analysis of aerial firefighting occurrences in Australia, July 2000 to March 2020 (atsb.gov.au)
I live about an hour from where it crashed. If you’re wondering about the importance of its mission, it’s too nuanced to explain if you need it explained. Live in WA for a year…
We don’t know why it crashed, Most likely a stall or just CFIT produced by TF.
The pilots walked away thank god, but the prevailing feeling on the streets of Esperance is, great, now we’re down a water tanker rolling into bushfire season
We don’t know why it crashed, Most likely a stall or just CFIT produced by TF.
The pilots walked away thank god, but the prevailing feeling on the streets of Esperance is, great, now we’re down a water tanker rolling into bushfire season
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Originally Posted by KAPAC
Just like to say thanks to these crews , highly skilled , courages and living away from loved ones for months at a time so they can help save lives and millions of dollars worth of property in our country . A 737 , 747 , bae 146 or even a hurc is not a natural fire bomber , designed to live at flight levels . Nothing but respect for the skill required to do this job and it’s fricken great they got out . There will be more crashes and these pilots know that and they still strap in . Happy to see it’s not been a big thing here or on the news . Special mention to our military boys and girls also , similar sentiments.
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but the prevailing feeling on the streets of Esperance is, great, now we’re down a water tanker rolling into bushfire season
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I’d be happy for my taxes to be used to bulldoze it into the ground where it is , cancel the inquiry if pilots say they lost situational awareness for a second and hit a bit of high terrain , pay hospital bills and pin a medal on their chests . Give them another tanker and stand back and watch them pit their skills against nature again . Thanking them and money they make are not related .
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Originally Posted by MooLoo
the prevailing feeling on the streets of Esperance is, great, now we’re down a water tanker rolling into bushfire season
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Originally Posted by Mooloo
Sorry mate. These boys and girls that spend time away from home and loved ones for months on end aren’t in this for altruistic reasons.
Originally Posted by Mooloo
Let’s take our rose coloured glasses off for a moment and take in the reality that this was probably pilot error and if we want to do a bit of hero worship, maybe thank god they didn’t kill anyone.
Next time I see a paid paramedic or doctor saves someone's life, I'll make sure to remember that they aren't doing it for altruistic reasons, and to thank god they didn't kill anyone.
