Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Bonza has its AOC

Old 21st Jan 2023, 08:45
  #101 (permalink)  
 
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777p have some smart people and I cant see them just chucking cash into a hole.
Didn't Singapore Airlines do that in 2007?


It sounds like everyone wants Bonza to work. But it seems like everyone here is trying to find other ways for Bonza to become viable, which is not what they have told us over and over and over, they are wanting to do. The one issue with operating to your plan Deono, is the Bonza commercial director was asked about profitability, she said that they can't operate on other established routes re challenges trying to make profit due competition. She is correct on that front, how much profit did Tiger ever make? Check out the results when they had some stability mid last decade, still didn't make any cash. Was always a dead duck.


The irony is, the Bonza commercial director, cut Tiger's regional routes back in the day, to Rockhampton, Mackay, and Alice Springs when she arrived from Easyjet, and started more city routes.
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 12:07
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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If the issue with City pairs is competition stifling profitability I would have to strongly disagree
With the likes of Flair (777 partners) Southwest and Ryanair happy to be selling seats at less than $50 regularly I would think that JQ would not match or undercut this long term

Need to understand that legacy, LCC and ULCC all have some similar costing like leasing, fuel, crew, maintenance and taxes
Then there the other stuff that can produce cost reductions
Back end staff, management, agents, advertising, fleet utilization and airport fees

As a clean sheet airline, they don't have to deal with old work place agreements either, keeping their costs lean and their planes full should give them a competitive edge over JQ, who arguably have not made a profit since inception
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 12:49
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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With the likes of Flair (777 partners) Southwest and Ryanair…
1. Look at their catchment, the population base available to them. Europe 749 million people. USA 332 million people. London alone is around 14 million people, half the Australian population.

2. Ryanair uses secondary airports to reduce costs. Girona for Barcelona, Stanstead for London, Beauvais for Paris etc. I do not know about the other two.


Neither of these points apply in the Australian market. Tony Fernandez spoke wise words about entering the Australian market.

Last edited by Icarus2001; 21st Jan 2023 at 12:59.
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 20:03
  #104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
1. Look at their catchment, the population base available to them. Europe 749 million people. USA 332 million people. London alone is around 14 million people, half the Australian population.

2. Ryanair uses secondary airports to reduce costs. Girona for Barcelona, Stanstead for London, Beauvais for Paris etc. I do not know about the other two.


Neither of these points apply in the Australian market. Tony Fernandez spoke wise words about entering the Australian market.
1) The catchment is not as relevant as you may think
One example a 5 x daily verses a 3 x weekly, if the flights are still full, does this really matter?
European and American LCCs all do plenty of sub daily pairs along with multi daily pairs
Plus European carriers are also competing with Fast Rail, better highway networks and shorter distances

2) Secondary Airports
MCY, OOL, WTB, NTL, SWA, MEB and AVV
I reckon these qualify...
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Old 21st Jan 2023, 22:46
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One example a 5 x daily verses a 3 x weekly, if the flights are still full, does this really matter?
Yes it does.

To keep it simple say they make $1000 on each flight. Your example is the difference between $3000 a week profit and $35,000 a week profit.
Which profit metric would you prefer to be managing?

My secondary airports comment is in relation to people suggesting “they should” change their model to city pairs.

By SWA do you mean SWZ? Since it is not built yet we should probably leave that out.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 00:12
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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I don’t think much has changed either.

AirAsia’s Fernandes claims Tiger on drugs for starting Aussie operation
​​​​​​​AirAsia chief executive Tony Fernandes says his rival, Tiger Airways, must have been "on drugs" when it decided to set up a domestic airline in Australia and says he has no plans to do the same.

However, the outspoken head of Jetstar's new alliance partner said he planned to increase the number of routes AirAsia flew out of Australia and hoped to launch Sydney services within six months.

"Am I going to come up and set up AirAsia Australia? No. Tiger is on drugs doing it," Mr Fernandes told The Australian Financial Review.

"You (Tiger) are sitting on a market of a billion people and you go and put half your capacity in a market of 24 million which has two pretty strong airlines; it doesn't make sense to me."

Singapore-based Tiger Airways yesterday launched a $S273 million ($214 million) initial public offering. It set up a domestic airline in Australia in 2007.

AirAsia operates a Perth-Bali service and its low-cost offshoot, AirAsia X, flies between Kuala Lumpur and Melbourne and the Gold Coast.

Mr Fernandes said he hoped to eventually be flying to Adelaide and Darwin. He expected to launch Sydney in six months after a long-running battle with the Malaysian government to get permission for a service into NSW.

"We are very bullish about the Australian market," he said. "Sydney is definitely six months away if we get all the rights approved. We think we have just got started. There is a whole lot of market we can achieve over the next number of years.

"We believe we can do many other points. Australians who have generally just gone to Bali are discovering Asia in a big way."

Mr Fernandes also revealed former Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon had approached him in the past about buying AirAsia, something the Malaysian carrier was not keen on at the time.

"Geoff was a very acquisitive man and I think he would have loved to have bought AirAsia to be honest," Mr Fernandes said.

"We were not ready to be bought and we were not ready to report to anyone else."

Publicly listed AirAsia is Asia's biggest low-cost airline and has grown rapidly since it was set up eight years ago. It flies a fleet of mainly Airbus A320 aircraft from bases in Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand. Qantas rival Virgin Group owns a stake in AirAsia's spin-off, AirAsia X.

Mr Fernandes, who wears a red baseball cap and has been dubbed the Asian Richard Branson, said the "sky is the limit" in terms of his alliance with Jetstar and did not rule out a merger of AirAsia and Jetstar in the future, although nothing was on the table at the moment.

"If it made sense why not?" he said.

"On paper, if you say Jetstar is very strong in Australia, we are very strong in Asia.

"Jetstar is struggling in Asia, whatever those boys say . . .

"I ain't going to set up AirAsia Australia, so you could have a very strong Australian-Asian alliance which has always been talked about . . . these kind of things make sense."
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 00:22
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Deano969
If the issue with City pairs is competition stifling profitability I would have to strongly disagree
With the likes of Flair (777 partners) Southwest and Ryanair happy to be selling seats at less than $50 regularly I would think that JQ would not match or undercut this long term

Need to understand that legacy, LCC and ULCC all have some similar costing like leasing, fuel, crew, maintenance and taxes
Then there the other stuff that can produce cost reductions
Back end staff, management, agents, advertising, fleet utilization and airport fees

As a clean sheet airline, they don't have to deal with old work place agreements either, keeping their costs lean and their planes full should give them a competitive edge over JQ, who arguably have not made a profit since inception
Great let's lower conditions in this country even further. You are either management or an idiot for suggesting that pay and conditions stagnate or reduce in this industry. Sigh.
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 00:43
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Servo
Great let's lower conditions in this country even further. You are either management or an idiot for suggesting that pay and conditions stagnate or reduce in this industry. Sigh.
Where did I say anything regarding lower pay or conditions?
I was saying
1) AB lean AB would not need as many back end staff or management
2) They would not be saddled with staff on old awards, they would be hiring against the new awards or EBAs that QF/JQ and VA are currently paying new hires

QF have somewhere like 26,000 workers for 124 or so mainline or 240 odd group (not including JQ) TBH I have not dug deep enough to get an accurate number as outsourcing, Link, Freighters, Network, JQ, QQ etc hide the true numbers
That said
80-100 workers per bird would be a reasonable estimate
I can't see AB having anywhere near this number, likely more around 40-50
This will be a significant saving that QF/JQ won't get anywhere near

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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 00:44
  #109 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001
Yes it does.

To keep it simple say they make $1000 on each flight. Your example is the difference between $3000 a week profit and $35,000 a week profit.
Which profit metric would you prefer to be managing?

My secondary airports comment is in relation to people suggesting “they should” change their model to city pairs.

By SWA do you mean SWZ? Since it is not built yet we should probably leave that out.
Very poor comparison
You are assuming that that 1 aircraft flies just 3 sectors per week
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Old 22nd Jan 2023, 00:53
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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No I did not assume that. Read it again. Like I said keep it simple. The point is obvious.

How about we give them six months of operation before we declare them incompetent fools?
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 06:06
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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Got cold feet?
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 06:21
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Originally Posted by Wizofoz
And you are missing an important point- where are those markets TO.
Tamworth- 70% to SYD, 30% BNE- very little to Melbourne. So unless they get 100% of BNE pax willing to go MCY...
Wellcamp- Qlink to Sydney. There is no market to MCY and won't be much to MEL.
Rocky-BNE- you get the picture.
Link has reasonable loads on the SAAB between Tamworth and BNE but nothing like 737 load of course.
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 09:50
  #113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Deano969
2) Secondary Airports
MCY, OOL, WTB, NTL, SWA, MEB and AVV
I reckon these qualify...
If I lived in Sydney I wouldn’t drive to Newcastle to catch a flight to somewhere. Where will I park my car and how much will that cost? Also driving two hours to get there?

I would pay a bit extra and fly from SY
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 10:15
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Westgate to Avalon is only 35-40 mins, Harbour Bridge to Newcastle is 2-2.5hrs. Fancy a 5 hour roundtrip to save 50 bucks? You would be surprised the amount of people who live/holiday closer to NTL vs SYD yet still use SYD. Just like the xx amount of people who drive past Avalon on the way to Tullamarine. A Secondary airport will only work in Australia if it's right in the thick of it, that being a metro population zone. Avalon has been a failure, sadly the Victorian taxpayers are funding 10 years of Jetstar losses (and Andrews propping up old mate Fox- that is a whole thread in itself) to keep it going until later this decade.

Bonza might have some luck using MCY as a more secondary option to BNE for those situation between the two, but they will need frequency to make it work. Daily or Twice a day. 2-3 a week just doesn't cut it, and they will continue to drive to the major cities instead. Getting stranded due cancellations, delays will become a issue, just ask all those Avalon passengers who get cancelled flights and pushed to Tullamarine.
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 11:37
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MCY is never going to be a secondary airport for BNE. This morning there was a crash on the gateway southbound near the Deagon Deviation at 0730am…drive from Sunny coast down was 1:55. Return drive at 1600, another crash northbound also near the Deagon Deviation= 2:10 drive home to the Sunny Coast. These delays/long drive times happen at least 3 times a week.
It’s approximately 100 km from MCY airport to the center of BNE and the regular commuters allow 2 hours for the drive.
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 21:04
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I would pay a bit extra and fly from SY
But how much extra? I'll give you an example.....in early Sept 22 a one way ticket from Canberra to Brisbane was ~$400-500....or I could catch the bus to Sydney for $50 and fly with Rex for $150. Thats $200-$300 saving for 3 hours of my time. The Murrays buses from Canberra are choka block full most days and they leave every hour and drop you right out the front of DOM/INT at Syd.

Point being, there is a price point where people will travel via other options. If there was a cheap and regular bus service to NTL and you could save $200-300 every time you flew.....you would go to NTL.
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Old 24th Jan 2023, 22:17
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Isn’t the first flight supposed to be 31 Jan? Not long to fill an aircraft if tickets aren’t yet on sale (granted it may be mainly filled with pollies, airline, airport and tourism officials). Perhaps the 31st flight is a one off with the rest to commence further down the track?
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 00:57
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Originally Posted by Zinfandel
MCY is never going to be a secondary airport for BNE. This morning there was a crash on the gateway southbound near the Deagon Deviation at 0730am…drive from Sunny coast down was 1:55. Return drive at 1600, another crash northbound also near the Deagon Deviation= 2:10 drive home to the Sunny Coast. These delays/long drive times happen at least 3 times a week.
It’s approximately 100 km from MCY airport to the center of BNE and the regular commuters allow 2 hours for the drive.
Say (for example) you wanted to fly from Brisbane to Mildura
Even with an accident on the Bruce, it would still be Quicker and cheaper with Bonza direct via Maroochydore
And 1/2 your trip won't be bouncing around in a Q400

As far as demand goes
740 seats per week Albury to Brisbane $296 one way in a dash 8 a tad less with a stop (4 x 737)
290 seats per week Wagga to Brisbane $291 one way in a dash 8 a tad less with a stop (1.5 x 737)

From this I can extrapolate the below
Brisbane to Mildura
QF $367 for 4 1/2 hours
REX $278 for 4 1/2 hours
Return is about the same
And this is the quickest, many other options blow out to 7+ hours

Bonza would be little over $100.00 for 2 hours + allow 2 hours drive to MCY and say $30 fuel

So for a Brisbane based single passenger
$734 QF return
$556 ZL return
$250 AB return

Family of 4
$2936 QF
$2224 ZL
$900 AB

Minimum saving $1324

Plus save a minimum of 30 minutes each way with bad traffic and no chance of luggage missing the transfer

So there re both time and financial savings to be had for those from Brisbane wanting to go to some of these regional ports
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 02:21
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Jetstar have airfares next week from SYD to MCY for as low as $71 dollars.
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Old 25th Jan 2023, 02:34
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Originally Posted by Zinfandel
Jetstar have airfares next week from SYD to MCY for as low as $71 dollars.
And ?
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