717 NJS - What's Going On?
I must be stupid but I never understood this.
How can it be cheaper to train someone new from start than give someone additional training who is almost there?
Example, you might have completed 100 hours training, but they say they can't afford another 10 hours training yet they can afford to hire someone new to replace you and give them 100 hours to get your level ?
Doesn't this also have a greater knock on delay ?
You might only need an extra week, but the squadron cannot wait, so we will just terminate you and hire someone new and they can wait even longer now? (Wait another 12 months longer now)
How can it be cheaper to train someone new from start than give someone additional training who is almost there?
Example, you might have completed 100 hours training, but they say they can't afford another 10 hours training yet they can afford to hire someone new to replace you and give them 100 hours to get your level ?
Doesn't this also have a greater knock on delay ?
You might only need an extra week, but the squadron cannot wait, so we will just terminate you and hire someone new and they can wait even longer now? (Wait another 12 months longer now)
Any company that has to wait for a Command Interview (only) to know whether someone is fit for command training, should probably be asking a lot of questions to themselves and the Training (Yes, that function actually exists in real airlines) & Checking Department. First Officers have always been Commanders in Training - that is how the system was setup before ego's and nepotism took over... Thus if they are failing in droves it simply means the one's who are failing them, have by and large failed at adequately preparing them throughout the years. A nominal failure rate can be expected, but these outcomes will usually be predicted by the system (if that exists), years in advance.
This begs the question...was it Line Training or Line Checking throughout the entire program in order to get to this point - generally in this part of the world, Line Training is a foreign concept replaced by Line Checking commencing Day 1 of Phase 1.
Imagine telling Elon Musk he knows nothing about EV's just because this is Ford not Tesla - i.e. this is NJS not Cathay/Emirates/Qatar etc (laughable actually)
Imagine telling Elon Musk he knows nothing about EV's just because this is Ford not Tesla - i.e. this is NJS not Cathay/Emirates/Qatar etc (laughable actually)
Last edited by RealSatoshi; 9th Dec 2022 at 03:28.
The following 3 users liked this post by RealSatoshi:
Never understood it either John, ex Oz mil but USN trained, chap told me he was on his final handling test at Pearce in a Vampire and was failed for a bounced landing, he may have been understating the bounce, but how in the world do you throw away all that investment for an error made on your very last flight?
Any company that has to wait for a Command Interview (only) to know whether someone is fit for command training, should probably be asking a lot of questions to themselves and the Training (Yes, that function actually exists in real airlines) & Checking Department. First Officers have always been Commanders in Training - that is how the system was setup before ego's and nepotism took over... Thus if they are failing in droves it simply means the one's who are failing them, have by and large failed at adequately preparing them throughout the years. A nominal failure rate can be expected, but these outcomes will usually be predicted by the system (if that exists), years in advance.
This is done by airlines taking fresh trainees at 250hrs and ensuring they can be jet captains with about 3000-4000hrs total time.
Anything else is an indictment.
Never understood it either John, ex Oz mil but USN trained, chap told me he was on his final handling test at Pearce in a Vampire and was failed for a bounced landing, he may have been understating the bounce, but how in the world do you throw away all that investment for an error made on your very last flight? The RAF have a term for those giving check rides, don't know if it is extant in the RAAF, "trappers". Perhaps the word says a lot. In the USN you were always given a chance to redeem yourself, a board of perhaps the CO and senior instructor would decide how many extra flights to grant, but of course there was a cut off point.
Sometimes the scrubbing from military pilots course saved their life. A bit dramatic perhaps but true.
Command selection and training for airline ops is a completely different thing. The airline has it in its best interest to ensure it develops those in the right seat for the change to left seat. And this happens in proper airlines.
Oz is still a fair way behind the rest of the world aviation wise. Adverts asking for a number of instrument renewals, 500hrs command/ICUS etc are all so 1970s. The rest of the world dumped this and instead train. The first command (ever) for many at my last gig was with 6000hrs total time, and on a A380 or B777. And they all do alright.
Perhaps this pilot squeeze at the moment will make these companies progress to modern times.
Your last line explains everything you question. "There is always a cutoff point "
It does nothing of the sort, unless you happen to know the FULL story. Was it simply a case of a bounced landing on the final test, or were there other issues; were deficiencies previously identified and if so, what remedial training was provided? Like it or not, but there is a cutoff point at which someone in management must make a decision about a trainee's future. In some cases, that might well be the final handling test. No organisation, military or commercial, provides endless remedial training in the hope that a candidate might eventually make the grade.
FWIW in the not so old days, a couple of decades ago, the RAAF would hire X amount of recruits and by the time those recruits got to the "getting your wings" bit the RAAF would know how many of those recruits were required, either due to budget or actual crew requirements, and would scrub the appropriate number. So in other words, if you were unlucky you could be on a course that requires absolute aces to pass or conversely if you were lucky you could be on an average Joe course (average by RAAF standards).
Whilst I haven't heard this directly from the Minister for defence, it would explain some of the times I've looked across the flight deck and wondered "how the hell did you fly a Mirage/F18??"
Whilst I haven't heard this directly from the Minister for defence, it would explain some of the times I've looked across the flight deck and wondered "how the hell did you fly a Mirage/F18??"
FWIW in the not so old days, a couple of decades ago, the RAAF would hire X amount of recruits and by the time those recruits got to the "getting your wings" bit the RAAF would know how many of those recruits were required, either due to budget or actual crew requirements, and would scrub the appropriate number. So in other words, if you were unlucky you could be on a course that requires absolute aces to pass or conversely if you were lucky you could be on an average Joe course (average by RAAF standards).
Whilst I haven't heard this directly from the Minister for defence, it would explain some of the times I've looked across the flight deck and wondered "how the hell did you fly a Mirage/F18??"
Whilst I haven't heard this directly from the Minister for defence, it would explain some of the times I've looked across the flight deck and wondered "how the hell did you fly a Mirage/F18??"
The following 2 users liked this post by BuzzBox:
FWIW in the not so old days, a couple of decades ago, the RAAF would hire X amount of recruits and by the time those recruits got to the "getting your wings" bit the RAAF would know how many of those recruits were required, either due to budget or actual crew requirements, and would scrub the appropriate number. So in other words, if you were unlucky you could be on a course that requires absolute aces to pass or conversely if you were lucky you could be on an average Joe course (average by RAAF standards).
Whilst I haven't heard this directly from the Minister for defence, it would explain some of the times I've looked across the flight deck and wondered "how the hell did you fly a Mirage/F18??"
Whilst I haven't heard this directly from the Minister for defence, it would explain some of the times I've looked across the flight deck and wondered "how the hell did you fly a Mirage/F18??"
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Game Over for the Buddy System and it's proponents - Commercial Airline Economics 101
Absolute crap
Meaning there is a budget line entry to account for the 'cost' of failure - whereas in the civilian world this is a luxury not budgeted for. Hence sooner or later the Failed Command Training / Recruitment / Initial Type Rating costs to replace those FO's deemed unsuitable for command will add up and the mothership will have a look into Pandora's Box.
Game Over for the Buddy System and it's proponents - Commercial Airline Economics 101
Game Over for the Buddy System and it's proponents - Commercial Airline Economics 101
Guys please take your military dick measuring elsewhere, the pilots of NJS who are reading this thread have already put up with enough of the military rhetoric just by being employed there.
I left there recently, it's a toxic **** hole of an operation run by a bunch of social rejects who haven't got a clue. A company based in Adelaide doesn't attract the top candidates.
During my last months there I turned up to an airport for an overnight and there was no transport. After calling the transport company they told me they haven't been paid in months so won't be picking anyone up...
Bullying, harassment, dishonesty, wage theft, cover ups, nepotism, terrible maintenance etc etc
all part of the NJS experience.
Stay well away, all the claims in this thread are 100% correct.
I left there recently, it's a toxic **** hole of an operation run by a bunch of social rejects who haven't got a clue. A company based in Adelaide doesn't attract the top candidates.
During my last months there I turned up to an airport for an overnight and there was no transport. After calling the transport company they told me they haven't been paid in months so won't be picking anyone up...
Bullying, harassment, dishonesty, wage theft, cover ups, nepotism, terrible maintenance etc etc
all part of the NJS experience.
Stay well away, all the claims in this thread are 100% correct.
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The only “dick measuring” going in here is by those who excoriate the RAAF because of their experience at NJS, rumour or hearsay. I get there’s a problem at NJS, but most of the commentary here about RAAF culture and the way the RAAF does things is complete bull****.
Is it a military thing to award yourself the powers of investigation outside and above the powers of investigation enshrined in the safety department? I’m told the person/people in question have done just that! Will this mean that from this point onwards, pilots are effectively guilty until proven innocent? Is the person/people in question subject to the same potential lack of due process as the line pilots, or are they given a hall pass? Concerning propositions given with whom we are dealing.
A student who reaches the required standard within the allotted timeframe will graduate with their wings. It really is that simple. Very few fail at the wings test stage; those who do have usually struggled during the course, but were given the benefit of the doubt until their final test.
Last edited by BuzzBox; 12th Dec 2022 at 13:25.
This mob is getting the newest type within the QF Group. I assume QF will want to fly the aircraft as much as possible. Much more than the DC9 they’re currently operating. How are they going to attract/keep pilots? Cadets? Or have they offered a bit of a bonus to the crew for operating the 220?
There is no support, mentoring or re-training for those pilots not making the grade. Think of it more like being kicked out of your local drinking hole, thrown into a rear alley, with a few low blows delivered just for good measure as you become airborne and just prior to your a*&^ hitting the cold and hard concrete.
