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717 NJS - What's Going On?

Old 9th Dec 2022, 01:13
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I must be stupid but I never understood this.

How can it be cheaper to train someone new from start than give someone additional training who is almost there?

Example, you might have completed 100 hours training, but they say they can't afford another 10 hours training yet they can afford to hire someone new to replace you and give them 100 hours to get your level ?

Doesn't this also have a greater knock on delay ?

You might only need an extra week, but the squadron cannot wait, so we will just terminate you and hire someone new and they can wait even longer now? (Wait another 12 months longer now)
Never understood it either John, ex Oz mil but USN trained, chap told me he was on his final handling test at Pearce in a Vampire and was failed for a bounced landing, he may have been understating the bounce, but how in the world do you throw away all that investment for an error made on your very last flight? The RAF have a term for those giving check rides, don't know if it is extant in the RAAF, "trappers". Perhaps the word says a lot. In the USN you were always given a chance to redeem yourself, a board of perhaps the CO and senior instructor would decide how many extra flights to grant, but of course there was a cut off point.
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 01:24
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Originally Posted by KBNA View Post
Many candidates fail at the interview stage.
Any company that has to wait for a Command Interview (only) to know whether someone is fit for command training, should probably be asking a lot of questions to themselves and the Training (Yes, that function actually exists in real airlines) & Checking Department. First Officers have always been Commanders in Training - that is how the system was setup before ego's and nepotism took over... Thus if they are failing in droves it simply means the one's who are failing them, have by and large failed at adequately preparing them throughout the years. A nominal failure rate can be expected, but these outcomes will usually be predicted by the system (if that exists), years in advance.

Originally Posted by KBNA View Post
Those that get a chance for the aircraft training are being failed on the final sim prior to the line check.
This begs the question...was it Line Training or Line Checking throughout the entire program in order to get to this point - generally in this part of the world, Line Training is a foreign concept replaced by Line Checking commencing Day 1 of Phase 1.

Originally Posted by KBNA View Post
A very substantial number of pilots fail this part and that includes ex heavy captains and very capable and experienced individuals who have never had a problem on the line or for any cyclics.
Imagine telling Elon Musk he knows nothing about EV's just because this is Ford not Tesla - i.e. this is NJS not Cathay/Emirates/Qatar etc (laughable actually)

Last edited by RealSatoshi; 9th Dec 2022 at 03:28.
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 02:53
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Never understood it either John, ex Oz mil but USN trained, chap told me he was on his final handling test at Pearce in a Vampire and was failed for a bounced landing, he may have been understating the bounce, but how in the world do you throw away all that investment for an error made on your very last flight?
In my experience, there is usually far more to the story than such tales would suggest. Who knows, perhaps there were other factors and the bounced landing was merely the straw that broke the camel's back. Besides, the Vampire's training days were over 50 years ago, in a very different era with vastly different attitudes to today.
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 04:16
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Originally Posted by RealSatoshi View Post
Any company that has to wait for a Command Interview (only) to know whether someone is fit for command training, should probably be asking a lot of questions to themselves and the Training (Yes, that function actually exists in real airlines) & Checking Department. First Officers have always been Commanders in Training - that is how the system was setup before ego's and nepotism took over... Thus if they are failing in droves it simply means the one's who are failing them, have by and large failed at adequately preparing them throughout the years. A nominal failure rate can be expected, but these outcomes will usually be predicted by the system (if that exists), years in advance.
In other airlines overseas once you check out as an F/O you get the next couple of cyclic sessions as consolidation, then itís on to command skill training. After a couple of years you are expected to be at that command standard, and are assessed at command standard, otherwise you are shown the door. By the time the command slot comes up it is merely a matter of training into the left hand seat, the management stuff has already been done.

This is done by airlines taking fresh trainees at 250hrs and ensuring they can be jet captains with about 3000-4000hrs total time.

Anything else is an indictment.
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Old 9th Dec 2022, 23:28
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Never understood it either John, ex Oz mil but USN trained, chap told me he was on his final handling test at Pearce in a Vampire and was failed for a bounced landing, he may have been understating the bounce, but how in the world do you throw away all that investment for an error made on your very last flight? The RAF have a term for those giving check rides, don't know if it is extant in the RAAF, "trappers". Perhaps the word says a lot. In the USN you were always given a chance to redeem yourself, a board of perhaps the CO and senior instructor would decide how many extra flights to grant, but of course there was a cut off point.
Your last line explains everything you question. "There is always a cutoff point ". How much extra training had ya mate already had to fix his landing problem? As someone has already said, there are at least three sides to every story. Not everyone has the aptitude to be a pilot. And a lot of very good pilots wouldn't make a good military pilot, just as they probably wouldn't make a very good Ag pilot.
Sometimes the scrubbing from military pilots course saved their life. A bit dramatic perhaps but true.

Command selection and training for airline ops is a completely different thing. The airline has it in its best interest to ensure it develops those in the right seat for the change to left seat. And this happens in proper airlines.

Oz is still a fair way behind the rest of the world aviation wise. Adverts asking for a number of instrument renewals, 500hrs command/ICUS etc are all so 1970s. The rest of the world dumped this and instead train. The first command (ever) for many at my last gig was with 6000hrs total time, and on a A380 or B777. And they all do alright.

Perhaps this pilot squeeze at the moment will make these companies progress to modern times.


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Old 10th Dec 2022, 00:27
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Your last line explains everything you question. "There is always a cutoff point "
I'm afraid it doesn't, how do you get to your final handling test only to fail, it demonstrates the failure of the training system up to that point, any weaknesses the student had should have been captured prior to that point, the final handling test is a bit late in the process, and yes I'm aware it's a test. Funny thing about training, a number of WWII pilots were very poor students and some took an inordinate amount of time to solo yet went on to become aces, Kieth "Bluey" Truscott a triple ace for one.
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 01:09
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
...it demonstrates the failure of the training system up to that point, any weaknesses the student had should have been captured prior to that point...
It does nothing of the sort, unless you happen to know the FULL story. Was it simply a case of a bounced landing on the final test, or were there other issues; were deficiencies previously identified and if so, what remedial training was provided? Like it or not, but there is a cutoff point at which someone in management must make a decision about a trainee's future. In some cases, that might well be the final handling test. No organisation, military or commercial, provides endless remedial training in the hope that a candidate might eventually make the grade.
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 02:24
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FWIW in the not so old days, a couple of decades ago, the RAAF would hire X amount of recruits and by the time those recruits got to the "getting your wings" bit the RAAF would know how many of those recruits were required, either due to budget or actual crew requirements, and would scrub the appropriate number. So in other words, if you were unlucky you could be on a course that requires absolute aces to pass or conversely if you were lucky you could be on an average Joe course (average by RAAF standards).
Whilst I haven't heard this directly from the Minister for defence, it would explain some of the times I've looked across the flight deck and wondered "how the hell did you fly a Mirage/F18??"
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 03:06
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Originally Posted by airdualbleedfault View Post
FWIW in the not so old days, a couple of decades ago, the RAAF would hire X amount of recruits and by the time those recruits got to the "getting your wings" bit the RAAF would know how many of those recruits were required, either due to budget or actual crew requirements, and would scrub the appropriate number. So in other words, if you were unlucky you could be on a course that requires absolute aces to pass or conversely if you were lucky you could be on an average Joe course (average by RAAF standards).
Whilst I haven't heard this directly from the Minister for defence, it would explain some of the times I've looked across the flight deck and wondered "how the hell did you fly a Mirage/F18??"
What utter crap.
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 04:48
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Originally Posted by airdualbleedfault View Post
FWIW in the not so old days, a couple of decades ago, the RAAF would hire X amount of recruits and by the time those recruits got to the "getting your wings" bit the RAAF would know how many of those recruits were required, either due to budget or actual crew requirements, and would scrub the appropriate number. So in other words, if you were unlucky you could be on a course that requires absolute aces to pass or conversely if you were lucky you could be on an average Joe course (average by RAAF standards).
Whilst I haven't heard this directly from the Minister for defence, it would explain some of the times I've looked across the flight deck and wondered "how the hell did you fly a Mirage/F18??"
This is absolutely incorrect.
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 06:50
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Originally Posted by BuzzBox View Post
It works within tight budget constraints.....The amount that's allocated to pilot training takes historical course washout rates into account.
Meaning there is a budget line entry to account for the 'cost' of failure - whereas in the civilian world this is a luxury not budgeted for. Hence sooner or later the Failed Command Training / Recruitment / Initial Type Rating costs to replace those FO's deemed unsuitable for command will add up and the mothership will have a look into Pandora's Box.

Game Over for the Buddy System and it's proponents - Commercial Airline Economics 101
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 13:11
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Absolute crap
Originally Posted by RealSatoshi View Post
Meaning there is a budget line entry to account for the 'cost' of failure - whereas in the civilian world this is a luxury not budgeted for. Hence sooner or later the Failed Command Training / Recruitment / Initial Type Rating costs to replace those FO's deemed unsuitable for command will add up and the mothership will have a look into Pandora's Box.

Game Over for the Buddy System and it's proponents - Commercial Airline Economics 101
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 16:45
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Guys please take your military dick measuring elsewhere, the pilots of NJS who are reading this thread have already put up with enough of the military rhetoric just by being employed there.

I left there recently, it's a toxic shit hole of an operation run by a bunch of social rejects who haven't got a clue. A company based in Adelaide doesn't attract the top candidates.
During my last months there I turned up to an airport for an overnight and there was no transport. After calling the transport company they told me they haven't been paid in months so won't be picking anyone up...

Bullying, harassment, dishonesty, wage theft, cover ups, nepotism, terrible maintenance etc etc
all part of the NJS experience.

Stay well away, all the claims in this thread are 100% correct.
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 20:51
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Originally Posted by Power View Post
Guys please take your military dick measuring elsewhere, the pilots of NJS who are reading this thread have already put up with enough of the military rhetoric just by being employed there..
The only “dick measuring” going in here is by those who excoriate the RAAF because of their experience at NJS, rumour or hearsay. I get there’s a problem at NJS, but most of the commentary here about RAAF culture and the way the RAAF does things is complete bullshit.
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Old 10th Dec 2022, 20:58
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If you think NJS is the only operation in Australia where RAAF'ies think and act like they are better than everyone else, you've got rocks in your head.
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Old 12th Dec 2022, 02:37
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Is it a military thing to award yourself the powers of investigation outside and above the powers of investigation enshrined in the safety department? Iím told the person/people in question have done just that! Will this mean that from this point onwards, pilots are effectively guilty until proven innocent? Is the person/people in question subject to the same potential lack of due process as the line pilots, or are they given a hall pass? Concerning propositions given with whom we are dealing.
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Old 12th Dec 2022, 04:42
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Originally Posted by junior.VH-LFA View Post
This is absolutely incorrect.
Absolutely not, straight from the horses mouth. Unlikely you were out of kindy when this was happening, not saying it's in practice today
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Old 12th Dec 2022, 07:07
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Originally Posted by airdualbleedfault View Post
Absolutely not, straight from the horses mouth. Unlikely you were out of kindy when this was happening, not saying it's in practice today
Which "horse" would that be? Someone who failed pilot's course during that period, perchance? As someone who worked in an executive position at 2FTS, I know for a fact that students were not scrubbed for the reason you claimed.

A student who reaches the required standard within the allotted timeframe will graduate with their wings. It really is that simple. Very few fail at the wings test stage; those who do have usually struggled during the course, but were given the benefit of the doubt until their final test.

Last edited by BuzzBox; 12th Dec 2022 at 13:25.
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Old 12th Dec 2022, 07:18
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This mob is getting the newest type within the QF Group. I assume QF will want to fly the aircraft as much as possible. Much more than the DC9 theyíre currently operating. How are they going to attract/keep pilots? Cadets? Or have they offered a bit of a bonus to the crew for operating the 220?
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Old 12th Dec 2022, 20:31
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There is no support, mentoring or re-training for those pilots not making the grade. Think of it more like being kicked out of your local drinking hole, thrown into a rear alley, with a few low blows delivered just for good measure as you become airborne and just prior to your a*&^ hitting the cold and hard concrete.
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