Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Race to the bottom

Old 12th Aug 2022, 22:43
  #141 (permalink)  
 
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Between ILS airport pairs, the technology has long been here to fully automate. Now consider the immense complications of the Tesla autopilots being able to manoeuvre in a totally random environment. In contrast, the aircraft autopilot in a highly controlled environment is simplistic. Check out the Piper M600 Emergency auto land by Garmin. I’m not even sure it needs an ILS to guide it to touchdown. All this in a tin pot GA single. Imagine what Airbus and Boeing could do if they put their minds to it.

Everything an airline pilot does is either rule driven or can be made rule driven. And thus ripe for automation.

Pilot salaries are merely an annoyance to management. Their biggest constraint is rostering and complying with those pesky flight and duty limitations. And this is why automation is inevitable.

On the positive side bush flying in PNG and offshore Heli ops will be the last to be pilotless.
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Old 12th Aug 2022, 23:58
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lucille View Post
Everything an airline pilot does is either rule driven or can be made rule driven.
Are you sure?
I live operate in a country where they cant even make a proper rule set after years of trying.

That aside, are you telling me that as a pilot you have never had to decide on a course of action for which no rule or procedure existed to guide you?
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Old 13th Aug 2022, 00:31
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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That aside, are you telling me that as a pilot you have never had to decide on a course of action for which no rule or procedure existed to guide you?
it would appear that Australia has become a country unable to function without a rule for every daily minute of existence.
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Old 13th Aug 2022, 21:59
  #144 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
Where do you get that from? Crew costs are about 10-13% of operating costs.
You are correct. My comment was regarding labor costs.
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 05:48
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Race to the Bottom...Well....this is sure to evoke some heated and emotional discussion amongst Board Executives and C-Suites around the country - long overdue

Treasurer Jim Chalmers says the ability for employers to apply to cancel enterprise bargaining agreements is one of the reasons behind slow wage growth in Australia - The Sydney Morning Herald (12 July 2022)

The ACTU welcomes today's commitment from Workplace Relations Minister Tony Burke to stop employers using the threat of EBA terminations as a bargaining tactic. - The Australian Council of Trade Unions (ACTU) (8 August 2022)

Last edited by RealSatoshi; 17th Aug 2022 at 06:12.
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 08:20
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lucille View Post
Between ILS airport pairs, the technology has long been here to fully automate. Now consider the immense complications of the Tesla autopilots being able to manoeuvre in a totally random environment. In contrast, the aircraft autopilot in a highly controlled environment is simplistic. Check out the Piper M600 Emergency auto land by Garmin. I’m not even sure it needs an ILS to guide it to touchdown. All this in a tin pot GA single. Imagine what Airbus and Boeing could do if they put their minds to it.

Everything an airline pilot does is either rule driven or can be made rule driven. And thus ripe for automation.

Pilot salaries are merely an annoyance to management. Their biggest constraint is rostering and complying with those pesky flight and duty limitations. And this is why automation is inevitable.

On the positive side bush flying in PNG and offshore Heli ops will be the last to be pilotless.
I don't really agree with that. Even the latest Tesla autopilot systems occasionally kills everyone on board when it entirely fails to understand its environment.

For vanilla normal ops, no doubt flight could be fully automated, but how often do you get a perfectly standard ILS to ILS day? Hows automation going to deal with the countless variances that in my view, require a decision based on inputs that aren't easily translatable to a machine? Strange smell on the flight deck? Dangerous weather return vs just heavy precip? Alarming noise during the t/o roll? On the 787 there are dozens of unannunciated checklists, ones that are only executed after a human decision because the aircraft has no idea what is wrong. or even that anything is wrong at all.

I think there is far, far more than needs to be developed for automated flight to occur, and I suspect its a long way off at this stage. My examples are just a drop in the bucket of the challenges that automated flight faces. And given the development time in aviation.. well.
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 08:57
  #147 (permalink)  
 
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It will be interesting to see how a robot will pick its way through the ITCZ.
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 13:10
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Two reasons why pilots will always be on flight decks of RPT aircraft:

1. The public need someone to trust for their safely and to keep them informed and secure in an environment they donít understand. Without people to trust up front, they wonít get onboard.

2. Aviation law needs someone to be held responsible when things donít go as designed. Without a PIC to be held responsible, the law will need to hold the operators ( ie CEOs) responsible for technical operations they will not comprehend. Then CEOs will have to employ staff who can comprehend these operations to fill this gap - ieÖ.probably pilots. (!!??)
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 22:35
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Roller Merlin View Post
Two reasons why pilots will always be on flight decks of RPT aircraft:

1. The public need someone to trust for their safely and to keep them informed and secure in an environment they donít understand. Without people to trust up front, they wonít get onboard.

2. Aviation law needs someone to be held responsible when things donít go as designed. Without a PIC to be held responsible, the law will need to hold the operators ( ie CEOs) responsible for technical operations they will not comprehend. Then CEOs will have to employ staff who can comprehend these operations to fill this gap - ieÖ.probably pilots. (!!??)
On point one I tend to agree but also think the ice cream eating masses really don't care. With more and more automation being bought in it will become more accepted. On point two absolutely agree. The CEO's and board members will never wish to be held accountable so if it allows a scapegoat to take the blame than a body up the front will be worth it.
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Old 17th Aug 2022, 06:09
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
To be fair it is not an international ‘aviation’ disease but a disease of modern corporate culture. Allowing upper management to enrich themselves off short term cost cutting KPI’s drives the behaviour that consigns all workers to ever worsening conditions.
Yes, I know the thought of asking for more money probably makes you feel a little queasy, this is a total non-negotiable. Besides, everyone else is doing it. With inflation burning through 7% of your wallet this year, you need to get at least that much of a payrise, or you'll be going backwards. - Scott Pape, The Barefoot Investor (15 August 2022)
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