Qantas Fuel Mayday

[missy]

Originally Posted by BuzzBox

Last night's YPPH TAFs:

TAF YPPH 261102Z 2612/2718 15005KT 9999 FEW015 BKN040 FM270100
07010KT 9999 BKN050 FM270600 08008KT CAVOK=

TAF AMD YPPH 261304Z 2613/2718 07004KT 9999 FEW008 SCT040 FM270100
07010KT 9999 BKN050 FM270600 08008KT CAVOK
PROB40 2614/2618 0300 FG=

TAF AMD YPPH 261308Z 2613/2718 07004KT 3000 BR FEW008 SCT040 FM261800
07005KT 9999 NSW FEW010 SCT040 FM270100 07010KT 9999
BKN050 FM270600 08008KT CAVOK
PROB40 2614/2618 0300 FG=

TAF AMD YPPH 261337Z 2613/2718 06004KT 0500 FG BKN002 FM261600
07004KT 3000 BR SCT005 FM261800 07005KT 9999 NSW FEW010
SCT040 FM270100 07010KT 9999 BKN050 FM270600 08008KT
CAVOK
PROB40 2616/2618 0300 FG=

TAF AMD YPPH 261405Z 2614/2718 06004KT 4000 BR SCT003 FM261800
07005KT 9999 NSW FEW010 SCT040 FM270100 07010KT 9999
BKN050 FM270600 08008KT CAVOK
PROB40 2615/2618 0300 FG=

TAF AMD YPPH 261426Z 2614/2718 06004KT 8000 HZ FEW003 BKN035 FM261800
07005KT 9999 NSW FEW010 BKN040 FM270100 07010KT 9999
BKN050 FM270600 08008KT CAVOK
PROB30 2616/2618 0300 FG=

Five Amended TAFs in less than 90 minutes, that has to be a personal best. Listing the METARs and the ATIS for the same period would be very interesting.

[BuzzBox]

Originally Posted by missy

Five Amended TAFs in less than 90 minutes, that has to be a personal best. Listing the METARs and the ATIS for the same period would be very interesting.

I don't have the ATIS, but the following METARs were issued during that period:

SA 26/07/2022 11:00->METAR YPPH 261100Z 32004KT 200V350 9999 VCSH FEW010 SCT045 BKN055 14/13 Q1020=
SA 26/07/2022 11:30->METAR YPPH 261130Z 03004KT 9999 FEW013 BKN075 14/13 Q1020=
SA 26/07/2022 12:00->METAR YPPH 261200Z 07004KT 9999 FEW013 SCT080 13/12 Q1020=
SA 26/07/2022 12:30->METAR YPPH 261230Z 07004KT 9999 FEW013 13/12 Q1020=
SP 26/07/2022 13:00->SPECI YPPH 261300Z 00000KT 2000 BCFG NSC 12/11 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 13:00->METAR YPPH 261300Z 00000KT 2000 BCFG NSC 12/11 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 13:30->SPECI YPPH 261330Z 06003KT 0800 R21/P2000N FG BKN002 13/12 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 13:30->METAR YPPH 261330Z 06003KT 0800 R21/P2000N FG BKN002 13/12 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 13:35->SPECI YPPH 261335Z 06006KT 0400 R21/0700D FG BKN001 BKN035 13/13 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 13:50->SPECI YPPH 261350Z 02003KT 1500 R03/0650D BR BKN001 BKN035 13/12 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 14:00->METAR YPPH 261400Z 04005KT 5000 R03/0450V0650N VCFG SCT002 BKN035 13/13 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 14:00->SPECI YPPH 261400Z 04005KT 5000 R03/0450V0650N VCFG SCT002 BKN035 13/13 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 14:03->SPECI YPPH 261403Z 06005KT 7000 R03/0450V0900U FEW002 BKN033 13/13 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 14:30->SPECI YPPH 261430Z 07006KT 8000 FEW006 BKN030 13/13 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 14:30->METAR YPPH 261430Z 07006KT 8000 FEW006 BKN030 13/13 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 15:00->METAR YPPH 261500Z 07002KT 9999 FEW006 BKN030 BKN050 13/13 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 15:18->SPECI YPPH 261518Z AUTO 20004KT 9999 // SCT005 OVC036 14/13 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 15:30->METAR YPPH 261530Z 19005KT 9999 FEW006 SCT035 BKN048 14/13 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 16:00->METAR YPPH 261600Z 19005KT 9999 BKN032 BKN050 14/13 Q1021=

[nose,cabin]

Originally Posted by BuzzBox

I don't have the ATIS, but the following METARs were issued during that period:

SA 26/07/2022 11:00->METAR YPPH 261100Z 32004KT 200V350 9999 VCSH FEW010 SCT045 BKN055 14/13 Q1020=
SA 26/07/2022 11:30->METAR YPPH 261130Z 03004KT 9999 FEW013 BKN075 14/13 Q1020=
SA 26/07/2022 12:00->METAR YPPH 261200Z 07004KT 9999 FEW013 SCT080 13/12 Q1020=
SA 26/07/2022 12:30->METAR YPPH 261230Z 07004KT 9999 FEW013 13/12 Q1020=
SP 26/07/2022 13:00->SPECI YPPH 261300Z 00000KT 2000 BCFG NSC 12/11 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 13:00->METAR YPPH 261300Z 00000KT 2000 BCFG NSC 12/11 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 13:30->SPECI YPPH 261330Z 06003KT 0800 R21/P2000N FG BKN002 13/12 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 13:30->METAR YPPH 261330Z 06003KT 0800 R21/P2000N FG BKN002 13/12 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 13:35->SPECI YPPH 261335Z 06006KT 0400 R21/0700D FG BKN001 BKN035 13/13 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 13:50->SPECI YPPH 261350Z 02003KT 1500 R03/0650D BR BKN001 BKN035 13/12 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 14:00->METAR YPPH 261400Z 04005KT 5000 R03/0450V0650N VCFG SCT002 BKN035 13/13 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 14:00->SPECI YPPH 261400Z 04005KT 5000 R03/0450V0650N VCFG SCT002 BKN035 13/13 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 14:03->SPECI YPPH 261403Z 06005KT 7000 R03/0450V0900U FEW002 BKN033 13/13 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 14:30->SPECI YPPH 261430Z 07006KT 8000 FEW006 BKN030 13/13 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 14:30->METAR YPPH 261430Z 07006KT 8000 FEW006 BKN030 13/13 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 15:00->METAR YPPH 261500Z 07002KT 9999 FEW006 BKN030 BKN050 13/13 Q1021=
SP 26/07/2022 15:18->SPECI YPPH 261518Z AUTO 20004KT 9999 // SCT005 OVC036 14/13 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 15:30->METAR YPPH 261530Z 19005KT 9999 FEW006 SCT035 BKN048 14/13 Q1021=
SA 26/07/2022 16:00->METAR YPPH 261600Z 19005KT 9999 BKN032 BKN050 14/13 Q1021=

Perth Fog,



With $35 million spent, to upgrade Perth to Cat3 b landing in 2018, why are so many in the industry not yet certified?


Basic Questions regarding DH concept for CAT I/II/III Ops

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by nose,cabin

Perth Fog,

With $35 million spent, to upgrade Perth to Cat3 b landing in 2018, why are so many in the industry not yet certified?

Money. An accountant has done the sums and has figured out that the cost of the average number of diversions due low fog and re-accommodating pax is still cheaper than training crews and maintaining equipment to low vis standards.

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by wombat watcher

Not necessarily correct. If the forecast for PER was above Alternate Criteria and you had already passed PNR and you couldn’t carry an Alternate, you are entitled to continue and commence an approach.
It is a step by step assessment, always complying with the rules until you have the circumstances such that you can no longer comply with all of the rules.
eg. You carry 10’ hold for ATC and they tell you that it will be 16’ and you don’t have it.

You’re not just “entitled” to continue an approach. If you’ve truly passed a “point of NO return” then literally you have no other option than to land on the bitumen at that airport which may have suddenly gone down to 300 metres vis in unforecast fog, using the capabilities of your aircraft to their maximum possible potential to ensure the approach is as accurate as it can be. The only other alternative (wouldn’t really call it an alternative) is a Norfolk Island ditching situation.

[Australopithecus]

Cat lllb is as much about airborne equipment as it is crew training. Which aircraft have fail safe multi channel approach capability that aren’t currently using it? Even the standard 737 with its basic 2 axis autopilot* isn’t Cat lll certified. Its only by using the HGS that QF can do it at all.

* Apparently a 3 axis option exists, maybe Virgin has it?

[Chronic Snoozer]

Originally Posted by dr dre

You’re not just “entitled” to continue an approach. If you’ve truly passed a “point of NO return” then literally you have no other option than to land on the bitumen at that airport which may have suddenly gone down to 300 metres vis in unforecast fog, using the capabilities of your aircraft to their maximum possible potential to ensure the approach is as accurate as it can be. The only other alternative (wouldn’t really call it an alternative) is a Norfolk Island ditching situation.

Or try Pearce.

[morno]

If budget carriers in Asia can train their crews, maintain currency and keep the aircraft up to scratch, it bewilders me why airlines in Australia can’t do it. For gods sake it was an extra 30mins or so in the sim session every 6 months to maintain currency and that was it.

[wombat watcher]

Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer

Or try Pearce.

FFS, in an airline, a pilot just can’t go to any piece of bitumen that suits them.
An Alternate has a capital for a reason. It is assessed for all sorts of criteria and if it meets the tests it is approved as an Alternate.
Then there are others. Airports for use for twin engine aircraft for use when they have problems. They need to be approved. Then there are Emergency Airports which are assessed and approved for use in emergency, but emergency is not really a real emergency. Then there are funk holes. They are bits of bitumen where the PIC reckons he/she can put an aircraft down.
Most , but not all military airports in Australia don’t get assessed as an Alternate. There are a couple of exceptions.

[No Idea Either]

Hey Austral………

We don’t have any HGS at VA but we have 3B approval in the old girls. Not all machines, just the fail operational SFP’s. The earlier models are only fail passive so Cat 2 only. The fail ops do compensate for rudder so 3 axis I suppose, whereas the fail passives don’t.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Originally Posted by wombat watcher

FFS, in an airline, a pilot just can’t go to any piece of bitumen that suits them.

I was responding to this

The only other alternative (wouldn’t really call it an alternative) is a Norfolk Island ditching situation.

In the Perth scenario, presumably you would find any piece of bitumen that suits rather than attempting a ditching. While Perth may have fog, Pearce may not.

[nose,cabin]

Emergency Fuel is very important and the delay in planning is unacceptable.

It's about time we saw some strategic thinking and planning, because if we keep cutting it that tight we mightn't be so lucky next time

10 years ago, we are still waiting

https://www.watoday.com.au/national/...124-1qew3.html

Controllers and crews at times resorted to discussing the alternative landing strips at the RAAF's Pearce base in Bullsbrook north of Perth, when winds reached 40 knots at the runway's threshold, as well as its Gingin airfield.

One crew even asked about Rottnest Island which also has an east-west runway but no night landing facilities, according to the aviation website.

[Wizofoz]

Originally Posted by Australopithecus

Cat lllb is as much about airborne equipment as it is crew training. Which aircraft have fail safe multi channel approach capability that aren’t currently using it? Even the standard 737 with its basic 2 axis autopilot* isn’t Cat lll certified. Its only by using the HGS that QF can do it at all.

* Apparently a 3 axis option exists, maybe Virgin has it?

And everything from the -300 onwards is CatIIIa capable.

[Wizofoz]

Originally Posted by No Idea Either

Hey Austral………

We don’t have any HGS at VA but we have 3B approval in the old girls. Not all machines, just the fail operational SFP’s. The earlier models are only fail passive so Cat 2 only. The fail ops do compensate for rudder so 3 axis I suppose, whereas the fail passives don’t.

Cat2 or Cat3a? If only Cat2, thai's interesting- is it an Aussie thing that you can't do Cat3a fail passive?

[georgetw]

Back in the old days Cunderdin Airport was the option to Perth Fog.

[Australopithecus]

At QF anything below Cat ll has to manually flown using the HGS. Since you have to disconnect the 2 axis autopilot right after touchdown to prevent unwanted roll input in lieu of yaw I think they settled on Cat ll being the limit for autoland. That also may have been informed by too many dodgy roll outs in other than low visibility conditions when the ILS wasn’t protected. A Boeing tech bulletin refers.

QF has of course only one HGS, and the F/O is subjected to 90 seconds of terror watching me be a meat servo while staring into the sole low viz guidance source.

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer

I was responding to this

In the Perth scenario, presumably you would find any piece of bitumen that suits rather than attempting a ditching. While Perth may have fog, Pearce may not.

It may not have that fog but as it’s only a few miles from Perth and at the bottom of the scarp as well very good chance Pearce is affected by the same fog as Perth. Way too close to be considered a practical alternate.

Best bet is for all jet operators be capable of conducting low vis approaches. This isn’t a new concept, Tridents were doing low visibility approaches in the early 60s.

[nose,cabin]

Can the VIP RAAF B737 BBJ aircraft land in CAT 3 b at Perth?
I imagine it can.

[No Idea Either]

Wiz

I should have explained a bit better. The later model SFP’s are certified to 3B fail op. Due to snags they can be downgraded to 3A fail passive such as LAND 2, like if the IFSD ****s itself, etc. The earlier models that we have are (no IFSD) only certified to Cat 2 fail passive so any problems and it’s straight back to Cat 1. Neither have HGS.

[Wizofoz]

Originally Posted by No Idea Either

Wiz

I should have explained a bit better. The later model SFP’s are certified to 3B fail op. Due to snags they can be downgraded to 3A fail passive such as LAND 2, like if the IFSD ****s itself, etc. The earlier models that we have are (no IFSD) only certified to Cat 2 fail passive so any problems and it’s straight back to Cat 1. Neither have HGS.

Thanks for the info!!