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Network Aviation Revolving Door

Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Network Aviation Revolving Door

Old 20th Jul 2022, 08:40
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Originally Posted by Jc31 View Post
was bae146 work with njs before the 737. These routes werenít created for the qf 737
Agreed. The original reply to my comment about Networkís operation being difficult to replace was pretty pass agg, and the kind of sentiment that would align with managementís divide and conquer wet dream. That said I didnít bite because I am very interested in weaknessís that leave us open to bad agreements and I was hoping to get more discussion going on the subject.

I am quite interested in getting something done about mobilising people towards a better agreement. This forum could be quite useful for that, but the infighting basically kills it. If we (qantas group employees anyway) could all remember that the enemy lives (10% of the time at any rate) in a toilet paper covered Mosman mansion rather than the flight deck of an affiliate airline we might actually manage that.
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 09:19
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Originally Posted by onezeroonethree View Post
Woopty doo. Imagine being an a320 NAA skipper sitting on your bay in Perth only to look left to see a FO in a plane without the word "Link" on the side of their plane earning more than you. Some command.
Thatís very interesting. Iím sure itís available somewhere but Iím lazyÖ.whatís the base salary for a first year Network A320 Captain versus the base salary for a first year QF 737 F/O?. Not interested in overtime or anything, just base salaryÖ cheers
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 09:39
  #123 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Jester64 View Post
Thatís very interesting. Iím sure itís available somewhere but Iím lazyÖ.whatís the base salary for a first year Network A320 Captain versus the base salary for a first year QF 737 F/O?. Not interested in overtime or anything, just base salaryÖ cheers
The QF guys and gals have always elevated their salaries when talking to expats at Fattys. They include allowances and overtime. Base is not that great and I applaud your question.
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 10:43
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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First year QF 737 F/O

$145,238 for 696 hours.

extras include overtime which is typically +30% and bonuses. Allowances and super additional.
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 11:10
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
First year QF 737 F/O

$145,238 for 696 hours.

.
versus $175,096 for 0 hours for a first year F100 Captain? A320 is another $20K on this?
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 11:32
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
First year QF 737 F/O

$145,238 for 696 hours.

extras include overtime which is typically +30% and bonuses. Allowances and super additional.
To re-iterate the 696hrs is 53hrs min guarantee, which (in non Covid times) is rare. Optimum hours are about 71 per BP and the long term history of the fleet usually reflects a standard roster built at 65-71 hrs. Taking an average of 68 that makes $184k first year pay on the standard roster. A few years ago the average pay over the fleet was just shy of $200k, without including bonuses or allowances.

With the rostered work hours at present some FOs will gross $230-240k this FY, not including bonus or allowances.

Last edited by dr dre; 20th Jul 2022 at 11:47.
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 11:47
  #127 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
To re-iterate the 696hrs is 53hrs min guarantee, which (in non Covid times) is rare. Optimum hours are about 71 per BP and the long term history of the fleet usually reflects 65-71 hrs per BP. Taking an average of 68 that makes $184k first year pay on the standard roster. A few years ago the average pay over the fleet was just shy of $200k. And then additional hours above rostered, allowances and bonus on top of that.

With the rostered work hours at present some FOs will gross $230-240k this FY, not including bonus or allowances.
so, to reiterate, QF First Officers on A LOT LESS than A320 NAA Captains sitting at the gate in Perth. Life style leading up to retirement I think Iíll take the NAA gig. Oh, thatís right, QF F/Os are on that salary for 15-18 years
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 11:48
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
To re-iterate the 696hrs is 53hrs min guarantee, which (in non Covid times) is rare. Optimum hours are about 71 per BP and the long term history of the fleet usually reflects 65-71 hrs per BP. Taking an average of 68 that makes $184k first year pay on the standard roster. A few years ago the average pay over the fleet was just shy of $200k. And then additional hours above rostered, allowances and bonus on top of that.

With the rostered work hours at present some FOs will gross $230-240k this FY, not including bonus or allowances.
ok so a first year 320 skipper averaging 68 per month adds pretty much bugger all at network, but still grosses $199K (versus $184K). Obviously there comes a point where a 737 FO working his ass off makes more than a 320 skipper who does the same; but he wonít make what the skipper makes by doing just 53. Horses for courses. I get it the pay is very sub-standard, especially coz we are comparing a skipper pay with an F/O pay. But what that original comment should have read was that the F/O needs to work hard each month to achieve what the skipper can do by just sitting on his ass.
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 11:56
  #129 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Jester64 View Post
ok so a first year 320 skipper averaging 68 per month adds pretty much bugger all at network, but still grosses $199K (versus $184K). Obviously there comes a point where a 737 FO working his ass off makes more than a 320 skipper who does the same; but he wonít make what the skipper makes by doing just 53. Horses for courses.
i did the figures and it doesnít add up. Why would any young pilot want to join the QF institution and be brainwashed that they are the best when there is so much on offer around the World. Network is a retirement gig I hope stays an option for a while. If an F/O looms out the window of the B737 without ďlinkĒ on the side and laughs at the Captain in an A320, itís more fool him. The skipper is probably working 2 days a week and catching a lot of fish
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 12:11
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
so, to reiterate, QF First Officers on A LOT LESS than A320 NAA Captains sitting at the gate in Perth. Life style leading up to retirement I think Iíll take the NAA gig. Oh, thatís right, QF F/Os are on that salary for 15-18 years
The last pay figure I get for NAA Capt is $185k on the last EBA rate. Even if thereís a bit of a pay increase for the 320 thatís still in the ballpark of what a 737 FO makes for a standard roster after 4 years, without any bonus scheme available.

15-18 year on the 73? Nah, most junior LH FO slot prior to Covid was 3 years, but I think for new joiners now 8 years is an accurate figure.

The NAA Captain could be working 2 half days a week for that money, or they could doing 5 long day sits at mines. In reality theyíre probably working roughly as much as a standard SH FO is and being paid similar. Thatís when the 320 isnít doing air returns or waiting at outports for maintenance. But the guy on the mainline list has the capability to earn far more in their career and fly more different types than someone who chooses NAA. If you have less than 10 years to go and are tossing up between the two you may choose NAA for a quick command to see out your days, but anything longer than 20 years to go and youíd be nuts to choose NAA.



Anyway look at the flow of people to determine whatís the better option. How many mainline pilots now resigning to go to NAA? (Hint, itís zero). Versus how many NAA pilots resigning to go to mainline or elsewhere (Hint, itís plenty).
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 12:24
  #131 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
The last pay figure I get for NAA Capt is $185k on the last EBA rate. Even if thereís a bit of a pay increase for the 320 thatís still in the ballpark of what a 737 FO makes for a standard roster after 4 years, without any bonus scheme available.

15-18 year on the 73? Nah, most junior LH FO slot prior to Covid was 3 years, but I think for new joiners now 8 years is an accurate figure.

The NAA Captain could be working 2 half days a week for that money, or they could doing 5 long day sits at mines. In reality theyíre probably working roughly as much as a standard SH FO is and being paid similar. Thatís when the 320 isnít doing air returns or waiting at outports for maintenance. But the guy on the mainline list has the capability to earn far more in their career and fly more different types than someone who chooses NAA. If you have less than 10 years to go and are tossing up between the two you may choose NAA for a quick command to see out your days, but anything longer than 20 years to go and youíd be nuts to choose NAA.



Anyway look at the flow of people to determine whatís the better option. How many mainline pilots now resigning to go to NAA? (Hint, itís zero). Versus how many NAA pilots resigning to go to mainline or elsewhere (Hint, itís plenty).
good luck with your multiple types and QF brainwashing Doctor. Iíve flown 8 types everywhere around the World and would still take an A320 at Network over your F/O slot
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 12:38
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Agree with both. Mainline if you are young enough and want to remain in AUS forever. NAA if you are chasing a quick command / Airbus time to take overseas and not look back. Or for those returning who have a command and want to work as little as possible without worrying if next monthís hours is going to be enough to make ends meet
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 12:44
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So, do the network guys only work 2 days a week? Or is that BS? QF wants pilots working 1000 hours a year, if Network guys aren’t doing that, I’d suspect that they eventually will, you can count on it. I guess it all depends on expansion/retirements etc….. with regard to quick commands. Plus, where in the world do you go these days?

Anyway, I’d take QF SO for 150k spending my life in London/LA/Honolulu etc…… for a few less bucks, than another 5am departure to Newman with 4 bars on my shoulder. But whatever floats your boat.

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Old 20th Jul 2022, 12:47
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
good luck with your multiple types and QF brainwashing Doctor. Iíve flown 8 types everywhere around the World and would still take an A320 at Network over your F/O slot
Thatís great because you have the free choice to choose any job you want. But the overwhelming consensus from the market shows mainline is the preferred gig between the two and NAA pilots are applying to go to mainline, not the other way round.
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 12:48
  #135 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SandyPalms View Post
So, do the network guys only work 2 days a week? Or is that BS? QF wants pilots working 1000 hours a year. If Network guys arenít doing that, Iíd suspect that they eventually will, you can count on it.
and then, my friend, people wanting lifestyle will leave. Difference is, theyll
have command experience, unlike the QF career F/Os
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 12:52
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post

Iíve flown 8 types everywhere around the World and would still take an A320 at Network over your F/O slot
MateÖ.. Cessnas donít count!
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 12:56
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All the guys coming down from Hong Kong would be millionaires many times over. Probably not liable for tax for a few years with credits from whilst abroad. Hope theyíre enjoying themselves. Great flying weather and a visible horizon will be a nice change.
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 12:57
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Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
and then, my friend, people wanting lifestyle will leave. Difference is, theyll
have command experience, unlike the QF career F/Os
Where are they leaving for lifestyle? Air Japan? Atlas? Emirates? Why do people fall over themselves to do the once Mainline Darwin return flights? You get to leave WA!

Like I wrote a few pages ago. Come into Network, quick experience and leave... to only return to the next Startup being used against those who stayed in Australia.

ps this thread is an absolute pisser

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Old 20th Jul 2022, 13:03
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Originally Posted by SandyPalms View Post
So, do the network guys only work 2 days a week? Or is that BS?
Obviously a company wants itís pilots working efficiently, only doing two mining runs a week would not provide that. From what I gather NAA hours have increased over the years, more weekend and long day work since getting into RPT.

With shortages and lack of crew atm NAA pilots would be flying a lot more than 2 mining runs per week for the same money (minus a day off payment). And crewing numbers are biting especially in training.

Originally Posted by ActiveLooker View Post
and then, my friend, people wanting lifestyle will leave. Difference is, theyll
have command experience, unlike the QF career F/Os
Resignation rate from mainline for lifestyle reasons is incredibly low, if anything it would be for quicker commands. Mainline has never been a tool to get quick command hours then leave for high pay overseas. It was a long term prospect for those who donít mind a longer wait but a more stable job based in Australia.

Yeah, you could get command hours quicker at NAA (although Iíd say 7-8 years still) and head off to make money overseas, especially seeing Asia still isnít due to reach peak pre covid capacity for another few years.

Last edited by dr dre; 20th Jul 2022 at 14:08.
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Old 20th Jul 2022, 13:07
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Originally Posted by Gnadenburg View Post
All the guys coming down from Hong Kong would be millionaires many times over. Probably not liable for tax for a few years with credits from whilst abroad. Hope theyíre enjoying themselves. Great flying weather and a visible horizon will be a nice change.
ÖÖÖ.😜
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