ATSB release report into Malaysian A330 Pitot covers left on....
TURIN, do you know if any consideration is given to the idea that a BA aircraft diverting into somewhere, somewhere other than a scheduled destination, could then end up declared as AOG at said destination? Does BA engineering management assume that there will be pitot covers suitable for the particular BA aircraft type wherever it is AOG, given that it could be some time before a suitable qualified and licensed rectification team can get to the aircraft.fixit, and get it away again?
Or are all/most pitot heads on airliners these days of similar enough shape and size that a set of 'universal' pitot covers will do the trick? The idea does, of course, assume that the diversion airfield has any spare pitot covers to protect an itinerant aircraft from marauding insects before it can fly again. Do these sort of things figure in BA's decision not to carry pitot covers on the aircraft? Just curious ......
Or are all/most pitot heads on airliners these days of similar enough shape and size that a set of 'universal' pitot covers will do the trick? The idea does, of course, assume that the diversion airfield has any spare pitot covers to protect an itinerant aircraft from marauding insects before it can fly again. Do these sort of things figure in BA's decision not to carry pitot covers on the aircraft? Just curious ......
As far as I'm aware, line stations in general don't hold pitot covers in stores unless their station is one designated as at risk from insects. If the a/c are scheduled to nightstop for any length of time at an 'at risk' station then provision will be made either to place pitot covers on board (noted as a tech log entry ADD/HIL/DDR etc) or to have the pitot covers shipped to the line station for the duration of the schedule.
If the a/c diverts to a non normal destination then a suitable local engineering MRO would be tasked with the job, and one would assume that if that station is on the 'at risk' list then they would have pitot covers in stock anyway... one would hope.
On the other hand, as happened last summer, every aircraft had to have the pitot heads inspected and signed off in the tech log within two hours of first flight of the day instead of fitting the pitot covers. (i think that was for scheduled ground time of less than 24 hrs and may have only been short haul. IE A320).
I think the pitot covers are type specific with an approved part number.
On the other hand there are some airlines that insist on pitot covers being fitted anytime they are on the ground for more than a few hours regardless of the local insect threat.
If the a/c diverts to a non normal destination then a suitable local engineering MRO would be tasked with the job, and one would assume that if that station is on the 'at risk' list then they would have pitot covers in stock anyway... one would hope.
On the other hand, as happened last summer, every aircraft had to have the pitot heads inspected and signed off in the tech log within two hours of first flight of the day instead of fitting the pitot covers. (i think that was for scheduled ground time of less than 24 hrs and may have only been short haul. IE A320).
I think the pitot covers are type specific with an approved part number.
On the other hand there are some airlines that insist on pitot covers being fitted anytime they are on the ground for more than a few hours regardless of the local insect threat.
Thanks for your thoughts, TURIN.
Well thank you, that's kind of you.
As a fairly normal - and therefore completely fallible - human being, I personally think it is most important to check such things as the pitot and static probes before attempting every flight* - for the very reason that we are fallible and covers might have been left on for whatever reason or whatever mistake. Do you disagree with this precaution? Why do we do a walk around and what is it we should be doing during one?
As for the gorilla effect someone else mentioned. Are they saying that pilots might miss seeing a cover or a streamer on a probe because normally they don't see one there? Just look at each actual probe as part of your walk around - your life might literally depend on you checking them. If you don't see normal, unobstructed probes, then there is obviously a problem which needs resolving - we shouldn't need streamers etc, to tell us; we should always look at each probe and port, and vane etc.
(If the traffic lights are red, and the green man is lit up; do you just walk across the road without looking or do you check in each direction that no traffic is coming and it is safe to cross?)
And another crew that continued accelerating along the runway with confusing cockpit displays - previously a FD that did not indicate 'fly up', now, no IAS. I am confused by this. Do pilots no longer do RTO training in the Sim? Where is the command decision making? How are these pilots passing their Sim tests?
What is happening to pilots? We seem to be witnessing accidents caused by allegedly well trained and allegedly correctly checked pilots, but who are making the most fundamental errors - errors that have killed people in the past and that we were all supposed to learn from. There are more and more tests to pass when applying to an airline before even getting to the interview stage, but we are seeing these fundamental errors. What's going on?
*and that the gear pins have been removed and the engine cowls are closed and locked, and the flight controls are full and free and in the correct sense.
As a fairly normal - and therefore completely fallible - human being, I personally think it is most important to check such things as the pitot and static probes before attempting every flight* - for the very reason that we are fallible and covers might have been left on for whatever reason or whatever mistake. Do you disagree with this precaution? Why do we do a walk around and what is it we should be doing during one?
As for the gorilla effect someone else mentioned. Are they saying that pilots might miss seeing a cover or a streamer on a probe because normally they don't see one there? Just look at each actual probe as part of your walk around - your life might literally depend on you checking them. If you don't see normal, unobstructed probes, then there is obviously a problem which needs resolving - we shouldn't need streamers etc, to tell us; we should always look at each probe and port, and vane etc.
(If the traffic lights are red, and the green man is lit up; do you just walk across the road without looking or do you check in each direction that no traffic is coming and it is safe to cross?)
And another crew that continued accelerating along the runway with confusing cockpit displays - previously a FD that did not indicate 'fly up', now, no IAS. I am confused by this. Do pilots no longer do RTO training in the Sim? Where is the command decision making? How are these pilots passing their Sim tests?
What is happening to pilots? We seem to be witnessing accidents caused by allegedly well trained and allegedly correctly checked pilots, but who are making the most fundamental errors - errors that have killed people in the past and that we were all supposed to learn from. There are more and more tests to pass when applying to an airline before even getting to the interview stage, but we are seeing these fundamental errors. What's going on?
*and that the gear pins have been removed and the engine cowls are closed and locked, and the flight controls are full and free and in the correct sense.
Removal of all covers and locking devices should be done prior to an external inspection for flight. What's the point of inspecting something that has covers on it so you can't see what's inside or underneath. There is also the relevance check, what is an A330 pilot actually checking on a walk around, being 10 meters away from the closest pitot tube on the ground you can only see it's there, not hanging loose or something is covering it, no way you'd be able to see a wasp or insect inside it. It seems this captain may need a vision check as he failed to see the pitot covers as well as misread the speed flags on take-off.
This goes back to what I said earlier, when CASA rubber stamps these operators to come into Australia they are condoning their down sides as well. Another operator that had pilots fly below minimas due to basic incompetence on numerous occasions at different locations around Australia, told passengers to pray after an engine failure, flew to Melbourne by accident after a navigation error, and nothing much done, they still fly here.
What is happening to pilots? We seem to be witnessing accidents caused by allegedly well trained and allegedly correctly checked pilots, but who are making the most fundamental errors - errors that have killed people in the past and that we were all supposed to learn from.
My point in raising the AOC issue was that an application by an operator of foreign aircraft to operate those aircraft in to and out of Australian territory must, under the Civil Aviation Act, be assessed by CASA against the same criteria as are applied to the assessment of any other application for an AOC. If CASA is just ‘rubber stamping’ these applications, CASA is failing in its duty. If CASA is not conducting surveillance of the holders of these AOCs, CASA is failing in its duty.
And was anybody issued an infringement notice or prosecuted for contravention of CASR 91.245? A strict liability offence applicable to any crew of any aircraft in Australian Territory. We can confidently predict what CASA would do to a powerless nobody Australian pilot who did what this crew did.
And was anybody issued an infringement notice or prosecuted for contravention of CASR 91.245? A strict liability offence applicable to any crew of any aircraft in Australian Territory. We can confidently predict what CASA would do to a powerless nobody Australian pilot who did what this crew did.
Last edited by Lead Balloon; 22nd Mar 2022 at 00:54.
It seems this captain may need a vision check as he failed to see the pitot covers
The lack of an RTO is a bit harder to rationalise…
Brisbane having issue with nesting wasps , could it be a work around, covers come off last minute ? Captain could have seen them but understanding was they get taken off 45 mins later by someone just before doors closed ? Banning any airline for standards causes loss of face and would involve lots of politics , unlikely in today’s environment.
Banning any airline for standards causes loss of face and would involve lots of politics , unlikely in today’s environment.
You're not suggesting that politics would be taken into consideration by CASA, KAPAC? (Rhetorical question...) Banning isn't the only option, and I wouldn't expect it to be the first or even near the top of the list of available regulatory options to deal with the circumstances.
Precisely, neville.
Precisely, neville.
FAA bans an airline (US. Big, big country, lots of power), airline gets pissed off and works on getting re-certification.
CASA bans an airline (Australia. Piss ant country, postures a lot, little power), airline calls Australia racist, knowing that if they pull the racist card Australia will cave, (and know that CASA are gutless and would probably never ban them in the first place), airline has all Australian airlines banned from their country of origin due trumped up reasons.
CASA bans an airline (Australia. Piss ant country, postures a lot, little power), airline calls Australia racist, knowing that if they pull the racist card Australia will cave, (and know that CASA are gutless and would probably never ban them in the first place), airline has all Australian airlines banned from their country of origin due trumped up reasons.
Surely it's only about the safety of air navigation and the travelling public? (Another rhetorical question.)
And was anybody issued an infringement notice or prosecuted for contravention of CASR 91.245? A strict liability offence applicable to any crew of any aircraft in Australian Territory. We can confidently predict what CASA would do to a powerless nobody Australian pilot who did what this crew did.
Reg 244 of CAR then?
Removal of all covers and locking devices should be done prior to an external inspection for flight. What's the point of inspecting something that has covers on it so you can't see what's inside or underneath. There is also the relevance check, what is an A330 pilot actually checking on a walk around, being 10 meters away from the closest pitot tube on the ground you can only see it's there, not hanging loose or something is covering it, no way you'd be able to see a wasp or insect inside it. It seems this captain may need a vision check as he failed to see the pitot covers as well as misread the speed flags on take-off.
I don't think pilots are expected to make a comprehensive engineering inspection of the pitot probes - as you say, we can't always get close enough. Just that each one is uncovered, and seems unblocked, undamaged and serviceable. If insects have blocked one or all of the pitot probes in the time between removing the covers and pushing back; there will be an IAS disagree during the take-off roll, possibly leading to an RTO. Oh, wait........
I am beginning to wonder if some recent crashes and incidents around the World might indicate that we are seeing potential evidence of forged pilot licenses, or "Parker pen" hours in log books? Or perhaps some wayward TRE helping their mates get through Sims?
I suppose it might be possible that at this airport, covers are routinely left on until the very last minute owing to the wasps, so pilots might have been told to disregard the pitot covers during their walk-around? But even if so, the 'Before Engine Start/Pushback checklist' should have a specific line added; "Pitot covers? - Three seen clear", or similar.
I don't think pilots are expected to make a comprehensive engineering inspection of the pitot probes - as you say, we can't always get close enough. Just that each one is uncovered, and seems unblocked, undamaged and serviceable. If insects have blocked one or all of the pitot probes in the time between removing the covers and pushing back; there will be an IAS disagree during the take-off roll, possibly leading to an RTO. Oh, wait........
I am beginning to wonder if some recent crashes and incidents around the World might indicate that we are seeing potential evidence of forged pilot licenses, or "Parker pen" hours in log books? Or perhaps some wayward TRE helping their mates get through Sims?
I don't think pilots are expected to make a comprehensive engineering inspection of the pitot probes - as you say, we can't always get close enough. Just that each one is uncovered, and seems unblocked, undamaged and serviceable. If insects have blocked one or all of the pitot probes in the time between removing the covers and pushing back; there will be an IAS disagree during the take-off roll, possibly leading to an RTO. Oh, wait........
I am beginning to wonder if some recent crashes and incidents around the World might indicate that we are seeing potential evidence of forged pilot licenses, or "Parker pen" hours in log books? Or perhaps some wayward TRE helping their mates get through Sims?
Like any checklist, unless it’s done properly, it merely becomes a response to get you to the next stage of flight. I don’t see how adding anything extra to a checklist is going to improve anything in this instance.
The last line of defence became that erroneous airspeed during the take off roll. Once that was missed and the takeoff continued, all the safeguards in place had failed.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On the chopping board.
Posts: 929
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Unbelievable.
How can anyone possibly NOT check Pitot probes on an A330?
They are in plain view, very easy to check, as are the Static ports and the AoA vanes. There might not have been streamers attached to the covers, but so what? You simply....Look. At. The. Probes. and you will easily see if they are covered or not.
And as for night time, all engineers and pilots carry a torch don't we, (and I mean a proper, focusable torch, not a phone)........please tell me we all do.
This incident is remeiscent of the BA aircraft that took off with the engine cowls unlatched because nobody did a proper walk-around.
This is really fundamental stuff. Any "pilot" who does not check these most fundamental items before each and every flight is.......well........words fail me.
How can anyone possibly NOT check Pitot probes on an A330?
They are in plain view, very easy to check, as are the Static ports and the AoA vanes. There might not have been streamers attached to the covers, but so what? You simply....Look. At. The. Probes. and you will easily see if they are covered or not.
And as for night time, all engineers and pilots carry a torch don't we, (and I mean a proper, focusable torch, not a phone)........please tell me we all do.
This incident is remeiscent of the BA aircraft that took off with the engine cowls unlatched because nobody did a proper walk-around.
This is really fundamental stuff. Any "pilot" who does not check these most fundamental items before each and every flight is.......well........words fail me.