Kangaroos and First Nation Peoples Flags
Both World Wars were fought under the flag.Keep the Flag Flying
AUSTRALIANS, FALL IN! POSTER
Propaganda posters
Including this quite racist one:
Australia's Imperishable Record
Whilst there are posters as well showing the National flag and the Red Ensign, they all share one common element - the Union Jack showing loyalty to the empire.
And here’s the point - when discussing the future of the flag it’s irrelevant what some soldiers over 100 years ago “fought under”. The concept of young men being brainwashed to follow a flag into battle to be butchered and turned into mincemeat because of the squabbles of old rich men is grotesque in the extreme. If it’s an argument that the current national flag, that almost 10,000 Australians were slaughtered under on sand dunes in Turkey trying to invade a country that never threatened Australia but was an obstacle to the British Empire, should be kept because of that then it’s a poor argument. How many millions of young men (and civilians, women and children) have been killed because of leaders brainwashing them to kill and die for a piece of cloth?
We’re a modern multicultural and (hopefully) peaceful nation now, we should reflect that on our symbols.
and it was a requirement at the time that such 'colonial flags' must include the Union flag to indicate the status of the dominion as 'an imperial dominion of the British Empire'.
The appeal here made is to the artistic imagination, and designing skills of the seven colonies. It ought to have the effect of giving birth to a Flag which will hold a proud and long enduring place amongst the Flags of the civilized world.
History of our flag.
In August and September 1901 judges appointed by the Commonwealth government worked through over 30 000 competition entries to select a design for two Australian flags – one with a blue ground for official use, the other with a red ground for merchant ships. The judges, representing naval and shipping expertise, chose a design for these flags as submitted in five of the entries. The blue flag was first flown from the Exhibition Building Melbourne on 3 September 1901 when the winning design was announced – this was a huge flag (36 by 18 feet), made to order for the occasion.
King Edward VII's approval of the chosen design, slightly simplified, in 1902 was gazetted in February 1903. In June the same year the Admiralty authorised the flying of the red merchant flag on ships registered in Australia. (From February 1922, when the Navigation Act 1912–20 took effect, this was compulsory.) The design was further modified in 1908 to give the Commonwealth six-pointed star (each of its points representing a State) another point to represent Papua and any future territories, making it consistent with the star in the Commonwealth Coat of Arms authorised that year.
The Commonwealth Government, at the time the design was approved in 1901, regarded the two Australian flags as colonial flags, with the Union Flag, usually called the Union Jack, continuing to serve as the national flag. Within the British Empire, blue and red flags (called ensigns) served primarily to identify ships at sea – the blue indicated a government ship and the red a privately owned vessel. That is why the British Admiralty controlled their design.
Only after pressure from Australian nationalists, especially Richard Crouch, Member of the House of Representatives, did the Commonwealth government begin to use the blue Australian flag for Australia's naval forces in 1903. After the House of Representatives passed a special resolution in June 1904, the blue flag was also flown from post offices and Commonwealth buildings in Melbourne and Sydney on national occasions. However, that flag did not replace the Union Flag on forts until 1908, and on the jackstaff on the bow of warships until 1911. Despite these changes in the regulations, the Australian flag was sometimes overlooked. Its absence at the ceremony at Fremantle to welcome the arrival of the first Australian cruiser from Britain in 1913 caused an outcry by nationalists.
The Commonwealth government's reluctance to use the Australian flag also reflected disapproval of its design. At the time of its selection in 1901, some critics, especially in New South Wales, thought the design too similar to Victoria's flag, as the designers had simply removed the crown above the Southern Cross constellation on the Victorian flag and added the Commonwealth star. Many of those critics preferred a flag widely used in eastern Australia during the 19th century, which had become an important symbol in the Federation campaign. This British white ensign featured a blue cross bearing white stars. Edmund Barton had in 1898 persuaded the Federal Association of New South Wales to recommend this flag as the flag of the new Commonwealth. As the first Prime Minister, Barton forwarded this design, as well as the winning design from the competition, to the British government. Later Prime Ministers, John C Watson from New South Wales and Andrew Fisher from Queensland, also thought the selected design unsuitable.
The First World War popularised the use of flags, especially Australian flags, on land. More people also wanted to put Australian flags in state schools, where the Union Flag had largely flown unchallenged since Federation. There was widespread confusion about which was Australia's national flag – the Union Flag or an Australian flag. In the volatile politics of post-war Australia, an Australian flag, unless accompanied by a Union Flag, became a symbol of disloyalty, since the Union Flag was widely regarded as the national flag. That was the flag used to cover the coffins of Australia's most popular war heroes, Sir John Monash and Albert Jacka VC, in 1931 and 1932. There was also confusion about which Australian flag – the red or the blue – could be used by various levels of government and by the people.
In 1924 the Commonwealth government, after much indecision, advised State governments that the Australian blue flag was for Commonwealth use only. Protest forced reconsideration of the issue, and the concession that State governments could use the Australian flag if State flags were not available. However, private organisations and individuals, and even state schools wishing to use an Australian flag were expected to use the red one. Strangely, the official painting of the opening of Parliament House in 1927 features the red Australian flag.
The Victorian Government challenged this direction in relation to State schools in 1938, and, unable to get a response from the Commonwealth, legislated in 1940 to allow schools to fly the Australian blue flag. This increased pressure on the Commonwealth government led it to announce in 1941 and again in 1947 that there was no longer a restriction on the use of that flag.
Finally, when arrangements were being completed for the presentation of an Australian flag to every school as part of the Commonwealth Jubilee celebrations in 1951, a decision had to be made as to whether that flag would be blue or red. The Menzies Government in December 1950 proclaimed the blue flag as the Australian national flag, and subsequently prepared the legislation which became the Flags Act 1953. The Prime Minister expected that the practice of flying the Australian flag and the Union Flag together on national occasions would continue. He also ensured that Section 8 of the Act maintained a person's 'right or privilege', defined in Britain in 1908, to fly the Union Flag.
This document, passed by Parliament in December 1953, was one of the few Commonwealth Bills to be signed by the Monarch rather than the Governor-General. Unlike most of those Bills, this one did not legally require the Queen's assent: Australian flags no longer needed British authorisation. However, the Menzies Government decided to invite Queen Elizabeth herself to sign the document during the 1954 Royal Tour of Australia. Her signature would validate the transition in national flags which was taking place, from Union Flag to Australian national flag.Though the Act is numbered 1 of 1954, it is cited as the Flags Act 1953 – rather confusing, but this document reveals the simple explanation. The Bill was renumbered – the first page shows the correction - and the Governor-General, Sir William Slim, instead of giving his assent as usual in place of the Queen, signed his statement, 'I reserve this Act for Her Majesty's pleasure'. Strictly speaking the document was not yet an Act: in our constitutional monarchy a Bill does not become an Act until it receives the Assent of the Monarch or her appointed representative.
Queen Elizabeth signed this document, and the duplicate assent original for the House of Representatives, on Sunday 14 February 1954, the day before she opened the next session of the Commonwealth Parliament.
The Birdwood Flag, flown at the headquarters of General William Birdwood at the Western Front WWI.
In August and September 1901 judges appointed by the Commonwealth government worked through over 30 000 competition entries to select a design for two Australian flags – one with a blue ground for official use, the other with a red ground for merchant ships. The judges, representing naval and shipping expertise, chose a design for these flags as submitted in five of the entries. The blue flag was first flown from the Exhibition Building Melbourne on 3 September 1901 when the winning design was announced – this was a huge flag (36 by 18 feet), made to order for the occasion.
King Edward VII's approval of the chosen design, slightly simplified, in 1902 was gazetted in February 1903. In June the same year the Admiralty authorised the flying of the red merchant flag on ships registered in Australia. (From February 1922, when the Navigation Act 1912–20 took effect, this was compulsory.) The design was further modified in 1908 to give the Commonwealth six-pointed star (each of its points representing a State) another point to represent Papua and any future territories, making it consistent with the star in the Commonwealth Coat of Arms authorised that year.
The Commonwealth Government, at the time the design was approved in 1901, regarded the two Australian flags as colonial flags, with the Union Flag, usually called the Union Jack, continuing to serve as the national flag. Within the British Empire, blue and red flags (called ensigns) served primarily to identify ships at sea – the blue indicated a government ship and the red a privately owned vessel. That is why the British Admiralty controlled their design.
Only after pressure from Australian nationalists, especially Richard Crouch, Member of the House of Representatives, did the Commonwealth government begin to use the blue Australian flag for Australia's naval forces in 1903. After the House of Representatives passed a special resolution in June 1904, the blue flag was also flown from post offices and Commonwealth buildings in Melbourne and Sydney on national occasions. However, that flag did not replace the Union Flag on forts until 1908, and on the jackstaff on the bow of warships until 1911. Despite these changes in the regulations, the Australian flag was sometimes overlooked. Its absence at the ceremony at Fremantle to welcome the arrival of the first Australian cruiser from Britain in 1913 caused an outcry by nationalists.
The Commonwealth government's reluctance to use the Australian flag also reflected disapproval of its design. At the time of its selection in 1901, some critics, especially in New South Wales, thought the design too similar to Victoria's flag, as the designers had simply removed the crown above the Southern Cross constellation on the Victorian flag and added the Commonwealth star. Many of those critics preferred a flag widely used in eastern Australia during the 19th century, which had become an important symbol in the Federation campaign. This British white ensign featured a blue cross bearing white stars. Edmund Barton had in 1898 persuaded the Federal Association of New South Wales to recommend this flag as the flag of the new Commonwealth. As the first Prime Minister, Barton forwarded this design, as well as the winning design from the competition, to the British government. Later Prime Ministers, John C Watson from New South Wales and Andrew Fisher from Queensland, also thought the selected design unsuitable.
The First World War popularised the use of flags, especially Australian flags, on land. More people also wanted to put Australian flags in state schools, where the Union Flag had largely flown unchallenged since Federation. There was widespread confusion about which was Australia's national flag – the Union Flag or an Australian flag. In the volatile politics of post-war Australia, an Australian flag, unless accompanied by a Union Flag, became a symbol of disloyalty, since the Union Flag was widely regarded as the national flag. That was the flag used to cover the coffins of Australia's most popular war heroes, Sir John Monash and Albert Jacka VC, in 1931 and 1932. There was also confusion about which Australian flag – the red or the blue – could be used by various levels of government and by the people.
In 1924 the Commonwealth government, after much indecision, advised State governments that the Australian blue flag was for Commonwealth use only. Protest forced reconsideration of the issue, and the concession that State governments could use the Australian flag if State flags were not available. However, private organisations and individuals, and even state schools wishing to use an Australian flag were expected to use the red one. Strangely, the official painting of the opening of Parliament House in 1927 features the red Australian flag.
The Victorian Government challenged this direction in relation to State schools in 1938, and, unable to get a response from the Commonwealth, legislated in 1940 to allow schools to fly the Australian blue flag. This increased pressure on the Commonwealth government led it to announce in 1941 and again in 1947 that there was no longer a restriction on the use of that flag.
Finally, when arrangements were being completed for the presentation of an Australian flag to every school as part of the Commonwealth Jubilee celebrations in 1951, a decision had to be made as to whether that flag would be blue or red. The Menzies Government in December 1950 proclaimed the blue flag as the Australian national flag, and subsequently prepared the legislation which became the Flags Act 1953. The Prime Minister expected that the practice of flying the Australian flag and the Union Flag together on national occasions would continue. He also ensured that Section 8 of the Act maintained a person's 'right or privilege', defined in Britain in 1908, to fly the Union Flag.
This document, passed by Parliament in December 1953, was one of the few Commonwealth Bills to be signed by the Monarch rather than the Governor-General. Unlike most of those Bills, this one did not legally require the Queen's assent: Australian flags no longer needed British authorisation. However, the Menzies Government decided to invite Queen Elizabeth herself to sign the document during the 1954 Royal Tour of Australia. Her signature would validate the transition in national flags which was taking place, from Union Flag to Australian national flag.Though the Act is numbered 1 of 1954, it is cited as the Flags Act 1953 – rather confusing, but this document reveals the simple explanation. The Bill was renumbered – the first page shows the correction - and the Governor-General, Sir William Slim, instead of giving his assent as usual in place of the Queen, signed his statement, 'I reserve this Act for Her Majesty's pleasure'. Strictly speaking the document was not yet an Act: in our constitutional monarchy a Bill does not become an Act until it receives the Assent of the Monarch or her appointed representative.
Queen Elizabeth signed this document, and the duplicate assent original for the House of Representatives, on Sunday 14 February 1954, the day before she opened the next session of the Commonwealth Parliament.
The Birdwood Flag, flown at the headquarters of General William Birdwood at the Western Front WWI.
Whilst there are posters as well showing the National flag and the Red Ensign, they all share one common element - the Union Jack showing loyalty to the empire.
Because they were. Volunteers to a man. Not to defend Australia, but to defend the empire. They knew they were not fighting for Australia, but they damn well knew they were fighting as Australians.
And here’s the point - when discussing the future of the flag it’s irrelevant what some soldiers over 100 years ago “fought under”. The concept of young men being brainwashed to follow a flag into battle to be butchered and turned into mincemeat because of the squabbles of old rich men is grotesque in the extreme. If it’s an argument that the current national flag, that almost 10,000 Australians were slaughtered under on sand dunes in Turkey trying to invade a country that never threatened Australia but was an obstacle to the British Empire, should be kept because of that then it’s a poor argument. How many millions of young men (and civilians, women and children) have been killed because of leaders brainwashing them to kill and die for a piece of cloth?
Australian Flag covering the grave of ‘Breaker’ Morant, South Africa, February 1902
Flag carried to many locations during the war period by a member of the Australian Army Corps
Military Death Notice, October 1916
Royal Australian Navy Christmas Card 1915-16. Postcard sent to parents by A.C (Charlie) Connell
Commemorating the Naval Victory of the HMAS Sydney over the German Light Cruiser Emden, 1914
The "FN Flag" reminds me of a beach towel with something dumped in the middle. It would make a great pad for flying the drone off though.
Beyond that there is no evidence they ever had the need for a flag let alone had one so it is really a bit sad really.
Beyond that there is no evidence they ever had the need for a flag let alone had one so it is really a bit sad really.
By the way, I thought the major opposition to the Vietnam War was because conscription was being used??
We were never under any threat of invasion in WWII, the Japs never had the capability, but that wasn't appreciated until after the event. Fighting a war is the ultimate game of poker.
Well, when I see our flag, I see a colonial symbol that is way out of date with what we are today
Mum somewhere in there among the Salamau evacuation crowd.
The military is a small part of the country, and there is a much larger story of Australia’s history than just the military history. The flag needs to reflect that.
Canada, India, South Africa and Singapore didn’t let any thought of forgetting about their martial past stop them from removing the Union Jack from their flag, so why is it suddenly a factor for Australia?
And in the context of the time they weren't the slightest bit influenced by propaganda posters of little boys asking their Dad 20 years in the future "What did you do in the Great War Daddy??". They volunteered not because of love of empire but because they were led to believe it was going to be an adventure. To say they 'volunteered' to defend the empire is utter nonsense and totally ignores the context and the environment of the time where they were actively encouraged to believe that it'd be easy and a great adventure.
You seem to have a remarkable insight into the mindset of why young men volunteered to do what they did over a hundred years ago.
Were you there?
flags 'grow' out of natural progression, they don't get chosen by competitions.
NZ is to be admired for how it has achieved this.
AP has never served so has absolutely no insight as to why lads signed up.
How kind of you to be so overwhelmingly inclusive.
Well if the Australian military wants to have debate on whether or not to change any of their own flags that’s a debate for them
Canada, India, South Africa and Singapore didn’t let any thought of forgetting about their martial past stop them from removing the Union Jack from their flag
when we were under threat of invasion, most of our forces were in Europe fighting for bloody Britain.
Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 19th Feb 2022 at 14:26.
A Britain that stated we were 'expendable' and had entered the war of her own free will despite knowing she didn't have the resources to fight it and frankly, had to be bailed out by the United States yet again
Churchill also knew that the USA was needed in order to defeat Germany, and pulled out all stops to get the US involved, some thing he achieved. The man deserves credit for backing Poland and rallying the forces to rid the world of Hitler, who else would have done so?
Now the flag.1901 – 3 September (now Australian National Flag Day) - Prime Minister Barton announced the winning design of the government’s flag competition at a public ceremony. Australia’s new flag of “Stars and Crosses” is raised for the first time at approximately 2.30 pm. Featuring the Southern Cross, Union Jack and Commonwealth Star on a dark blue field the large flag about 11 metres long, flutters magnificently from the mast on the main dome of the Royal Exhibition Buildings, Melbourne – the site of the first Federal Parliament.
Hence the Australian National Flag (Blue Ensign) becomes the official national flag of Australia. The Red Ensign of the new flag becomes the flag of Merchant Naval Shipping.
1901 – 16 September - First Vice Regal (and formal) raising of the Australian Flag by Governor-General, Lord Hopetoun at Townsville, Queensland.
1903 – 20 February - King Edward VII approves the design for the official Australian flag (blue background) and the Australian Red Ensign for Australia’s merchant ships and private pleasure craft (Commonwealth Government Gazette No 6). The points on the stars of the Southern Cross are adjusted from 9, 8, 7, 6 & 5 to a simpler pattern of four stars of 7 points and one of 5.
1904 – 1 July to 23 November - Australian flag flies at Olympic Games, St Louis USA, where the Australian team consists of one competitor.
1908 – 27 April to 31 October - The Australian flag is raised at the London Olympic Games in celebration of the first medal win for Australia which was for Rugby football. Our flag has been the host flag for the Olympic Games on two great occasions, at Melbourne in 1956 and Sydney in 2000.
1908 – 19 December - A 7th point is added to the Commonwealth Star to represent all Australia’s federal territories collectively. (Commonwealth Government Gazette No 65). There has been no alternation to our flag since this amendment.
Dec 1908 - The Australian Army gives Military Order, No 58/08 to direct all military establishments (Stations) to fly the “new” Australian flag (Blue Ensign).
1911 - The formation of the Royal Australian Navy is marked by the adoption of the Australian flag as the ensign to be “worn” (flown) from the jackstaff at the bow of all RAN commissioned ships and also at the mainmast as the “battle flag” when a ship is in combat.
1912 - Christmas Day – Frank Wild, a member of the Sir Douglas Mawson Australasian Antarctic Expedition 1911-14, hoists the Australian flag and formally takes possession of Queen Mary Land (now part of Australian Antarctic Territory) in the name of King George V and the Australian Commonwealth.
5th Aug 1914 - The Australian flag is used for the first time in an act of war when it’s flown over Queenscliff Army Fort, Victoria The fort opened fire to prevent the German steamer, Pfalz, from leaving port.
1914 – 9 November - HMAS Sydney displays a large Australian flag as a “battle” ensign during her celebrated victory over the German warship, SMS Emden. The success of HMAS Sydney is an international news event and establishes the fighting reputation of the Royal Australian Navy.
1917 – 20 September - Australian forces are victorious at the Battle of Polygon Wood, Belgium, during WWI. Lt A.V.L. Hull, who is later killed in action, plants the Australian flag on an enemy pillbox (machine gun post). The scene is subsequently depicted on a popular postcard which is sold to raise funds for wounded soldiers.
1918 – 8 August - General Sir John Monash advises the Governor-General that his troops in France have broken through the German lines and have raised the Australian flag after liberating Harbonnieres.
1928 - Sir Charles Kingsford-Smith carries three Australian flags in his aircraft, the Southern Cross, on the first flight to cross the Tasman Sea to New Zealand. These flags were subsequently presented to Sydney Hospital.
1934 – 23 March - Commonwealth Government Gazette No 18 features a line drawing of the exact specifications of the official blue Australian flag and the merchant shipping flag, the Australian Red Ensign.
1940 – 19 July - The second HMAS Sydney, with the Australian flag flying as “battle” ensign, defeats the Italian navy’s cruiser, Bartolomeo Colleoni.
1941 – 15 March - Prime Minister Robert Menzies issues a press statement encouraging the public to fly the blue Australian flag on land and the Australian Red Ensign at sea.
1942 – 19 February - The Australian flag that flies outside the residence of the Administrator of the Northern Territory is riddled with bullet holes during a Japanese air raid. It is the first flag to come under enemy attack on Australian soil. The same flag is used in Darwin for a peace ceremony in 1946. It is flanked on one side by the Australian flag which flew at Villiers-Bretonneux in 1917 and on the other by the Australian flag flown by the HMAS Sydney when it destroyed the Italian cruiser Bartolomeo Colleoni in the Mediterranean in 1940. This precious flag from Darwin is now on permanent display at the Australian War Memorial.
1942 - Australia’s flag is raised as the allies retake Kokoda, New Guinea.
1943 – 25 November - Sgt Tom Derrick raises the Australian flag on a shell torn tree at Mount Sattelberg, New Guinea, after having destroyed ten enemy machine-gun posts. His incredible feat earns him the ultimate award for valour, the Victoria Cross.
1945 – 12 September - The first flag to fly over the liberated Singapore is an Australian flag secretly made in a prisoner of war camp. Another Australian flag raised at the liberation of Singapore is now framed and held at the headquarters of the Returned and Services League, Canberra with a plaque which reads “This important artefact was concealed in Changi Prison by Captain Strawbridge MBE, from 1942-1945. It was raised over the gates of the prison, the day of formal liberation in September 1945.” A number of Australian flags were secretly made of scavenged pieces of cloth by Australian prisoners of war in various enemy camps. Some of these precious flags are now lodged in the Australian War Memorial.
1947 – 24 February - Prime Minister Ben Chifley issues a statement encouraging more general and widespread use of the national flag.
1947 – June - Letter from Howard Beale MP to flag makers to request they re-direct their manufacture to the Australian National Flag (Blue Ensign) rather than the Red Ensign (except for its proper use in shipping).
1951 - The Commonwealth Government introduces the presentation of the Australian flag to all public schools. This has become a tradition.
1953 – 2 December - Parliament passes 1953 Flags Act. The flag is confirmed by legislation as the chief national symbol by law, custom and tradition and its official title becomes the “Australian National Flag”.
1954 – 14 February - Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II personally gives her assent by signing the Australian Flags Act (Amended) No 1 of 1954.
1963 - Prime Minister Sir Robert Menzies authorises the flying of the Australian National Flag by night (under illumination) and day over the capital city, Canberra. The flying of illuminated national flags at night time is now an international practice.
1967 – 1 March - Introduction of the Australian White Ensign as the distinguishing flag for the Royal Australian Navy. It is to be “worn” (flown) in conjunction with the Australian National Flag which was adopted by the Navy when it was formed in 1911.
1981 – 24 March - Flags Amendment Act 1981 describes Australian National Flag as a blue flag consisting of the Southern Cross, Commonwealth Star and Union Jack – our unique flag of “Stars and Crosses”.
1998 – 24 March - Flag Amendments Bill amends the Flags Act 1953 to ensure that the Australian National Flag can only be changed if the Australian electorate approves. The effect of this amendment is to confirm that the ownership and control of the Australian National Flag is indeed in the hands of the Australian people who it represents.
2001 – 20 September - Governor-General, Peter Hollingworth, proclaims the Centenary Flag Warrant. The Centenary Flag is the flag presented on 3 September 2001 to the Prime Minister by the Australian National Flag Association at the flag centenary celebration – Royal Exhibition Buildings, Melbourne. It is a fully sewn, satin, Australian flag, inscribed with a special flag centenary message. This flag of “Stars and Crosses” features the crimson thread of kinship, which symbolically links past and current generations to future generations of Australians. It will be used for future important national events.
I can almost guarantee you that no one in the trenches at Gallipoli gave a rats arse about a flag or any other piece of bunting.
Sorry, does pulling on a uniform and following orders somehow enhance ones ability to understand what motivated people to do so??
Are you really going to sit there and arrogantly assert that because someone does, the rest of us are idiots and even if we read the listen to the account of people who were in WWI (including my Grandfather, in the British Army) that we somehow lack the ability to absorb that information??
For your information, you have absolutely no idea what I would or wouldn't do - if this country was invaded, you bet I'll pick up a gun an fight because I love my family and I won't have anyone threaten them or try to destroy my country's way of life. You have absolutely ZERO right to question that which you have by that holier than thou statement you made about me not serving.
My other Grandfather was a Police Officer for 39 years, starting in 1930. In peacetime I would contend he received similar injuries (although more often) and abuse and lasting psychological damage than any soldier would receive - he 'didn't serve' so does that make his service in the police force somewhat lesser because it wasn't in the Army, Navy or Air Force?? I'd contend he did more for his community and the State as he rose to quite a high rank than most people do.
And just for your info, he despised every ex-military person they put up to run the Police Force, because not one of them had a clue about civilian policing. That's not to say all military people are leaderless and rudderless, but rather a failure of government to recognise that protecting and serving the community is different to fighting the country's enemies or being trained to do so.
This 'aura' around the military that it is somehow sacrosanct and the repository of all virtue and goodness is just jingoism and it needs to be called out.
You obviously, at some stage, chose to spend part of your career in the military. Good on you, I hope it was everything you expected it to be. Being born and coming of age between wars and US police actions and the like, even if I wanted to there would have been no impetus for me to do so anyway, I chose a career in the private sector.
You don't need to 'serve' in the military to gain some sort of superiority over others that you throw back in their face whenever they venture an opinion.
You also don't get to determine what I would or would not have done if the need and the requirement was there to do it.
I know some pretty high ranking military personnel or have in my career and you know what, not one of them ever resorted to identifying that I 'never served' and therefore are incapable of knowing why they did. They just got on with it and acted like normal people, not making a big deal by - having no real argument - trotting out the old chestnut of "well, you never served so......."
As another poster mentioned on this thread. This is a Constitutional representative democracy, the basis of Australian Government is that the government is ".... directly elected by the people of the Commonwealth..." - the Constitution doesn't add that people who 'served' will get a disproportionately higher say in certain matters or get more than one vote at elections.
If you think they are entitled to more of a say because 'they served' then what the hell were they fighting for.......
BTW, you mentioned some time back that Churchill had a lot on his plate - yep, including orchestrating and doing nothing to then avoid, the Bengal Famine.
Last edited by AerialPerspective; 20th Feb 2022 at 06:13.
Again my point is - we’re discussing the flag to be a symbol of the current nation state, not the military. It doesn’t matter if people in the military “served or fought” under it at some point in history, I bet the current national flag has been lifted at many points in history. The current Olympics for example, it’s been raised a few times (as an aside I’ve also noticed the Olympic team uniforms are devoid of any elements containing the current Union Jacked Australian flag).
Now does the raising of the flag at the Olympics block us from raising a different flag in the future? No, not at all. So I don’t see why it being used in some military contexts in the past is now an impenetrable road block to a future change.
Last edited by dr dre; 20th Feb 2022 at 06:27.
And following on from that I checked the uniforms of the other Australian national teams. Olympic teams, Wallabies, Socceroos, Kookaburras, Matildas, Boomers etc.
Most of them feature the Southern Cross, the Commonwealth Star, the Coat of Arms, but none of them feature any elements that contain the Union Jack. It seems the sporting world moved on from the current National flag a long time ago.
Most of them feature the Southern Cross, the Commonwealth Star, the Coat of Arms, but none of them feature any elements that contain the Union Jack. It seems the sporting world moved on from the current National flag a long time ago.
The point being I guess with the input players and officials had into the uniforms, that there was no impetus from anyone to feature a Union Jack element on any part of an Australian team uniform. When given a choice people representing the country don’t want that element on their uniforms.