Kangaroos and First Nation Peoples Flags

[Captain Dart]

‘Cookie’, as Mr P refers to one of the world’s finest navigators and captains, did not ‘take up residency’ in Australia. Arthur Phillip and the First Fleet did. Their society was inventing the steam engine whereas the original inhabitants could not boil water. Luckily for them the colonisers were not Spanish, French or Portuguese. However, a clash of civilisations was inevitable.

The Japanese in a later century would not have been benign either, and were fought off by Australians of all backgrounds, including Aboriginals, under one flag.

[Gnadenburg]

Originally Posted by dr dre

European fatalities were a few thousand, so the death toll was about 20x in the other direction. Some pretend it never really happened, but most would call it either a straight up massacre or genocide or would call it war. If it was a war then it wouldn't it be described as the first Australians bravely defending our Australian homeland against invading foreigners despite the odds being stacked against them? Shouldn't that be something to be honoured at the AWM?

European fatalities would have been higher and many settlements failed had the war fighting skills not been so primitive. The intent was often annihilation of the colonialists which is understandable. Australia would have been colonised by other European powers within decades or if not, the sprawl of Asian Kingdoms or Islam inevitable within a century. A primitive, nomadic and diverse tribal First Nation was inevitably doomed.

What happened wasn’t right but how are we supposed to look upon it? Painting Australians as all being homicidal isn’t telling the truth of brutal times of early settlement and a penal colony. The hanging of “Aboriginal outlaws” in the 1840’s saw thousands protest in Melbourne streets. There were terribly evil people throughout our early history but I actually don’t buy that It was an entirety.

Many young people I talked to who vehemently opposing our recent Australia Day celebrations lacked depth in their beliefs and lacked moral conviction when pressed. Will they holiday in Arnhem Land or the Kimberley’s? Nope they are all off to to Bali - with Indonesia being colonialists themselves after ridding themselves of the Dutch. I actually think many just want to protest something to display their virtue.

I never saw an Aboriginal flag flying in the truly remote communities. I wonder what they want? Virtue signalling? Some have their Land but their old ways are probably not palatable with modern society. What they want is going to be a lot different to the urbanised, red headed bloke claiming aboriginality. Yep, as some public servants say, it doesn’t matter how much milk you add, it’s still coffee. Absurd.

A new flag and a new national day won’t change a thing. People who have seen the big issues know this. White people who ignore the real troubling issues for partisan politics or expedient agendas, as they seem to, must suffer some sort of complex superiority that slants toward an unusual form of racism.

[Zombywoof]

Originally Posted by India Four Two

… unless it’s “field hockey”!

Road hockey? Sure. Ball hockey? Yup. Field hockey? Of course. Ice hockey? Never.

I have been in this country since our flag was the Red Ensign, and I have never once heard anyone say "ice hockey".

Now about this flag thing, my thoughts: If you took the Canadian flag and replaced the maple leaf with the Qantas logo, it would be instantly recognized worldwide as Australian.

Even better would be Mick Dundee riding a 'roo, waving his hat in the air and holding a Foster's in the other hand.

[Derfred]

Very true!

Except that AJ would want more than $20M for it.

[Pinky the pilot]

Foster's

Bah!!! Maidens water!!!

Try a Coopers Pale Ale!

[Zombywoof]

Paul Hogan was featured in a series of TV commercials for Foster's here, hence my tongue-in-cheek suggestion.

In Canada, Foster's is produced domestically under license, and tastes just like any other domestic swamp water.

[Ascend Charlie]

I watched the graduation ceremony for Murdoch Uni (Perth) the other day. After the usual speeches by the Chancellor and Vice Chancellor, they had an indigenous ceremony. I have sat through these things in Canada and Alaska, and wondered if the people were really having a laugh at our expense - they could dance and sing and do anything they wanted and call it "traditional" and the spectators would not know that they were being ridiculed.

This ceremony had 3 indigenous men, fat (not traditional?) wearing baggy undies, some white paint drawn on their bodies, and they stamped on the stage to the sound of a didgeridoo. It might have been a joke, it might have been serious, who knows. But, just like The King's New Clothes, the crowd clapped politely. It seems to be a necessary thing in these PC days to say something like "we acknowledge that we are on the Oodna-galahbi land and we thank the traditional owners" before having any sort of event.

[Global Aviator]

Originally Posted by Zombywoof

Road hockey? Sure. Ball hockey? Yup. Field hockey? Of course. Ice hockey? Never.

I have been in this country since our flag was the Red Ensign, and I have never once heard anyone say "ice hockey".

Now about this flag thing, my thoughts: If you took the Canadian flag and replaced the maple leaf with the Qantas logo, it would be instantly recognized worldwide as Australian.

Even better would be Mick Dundee riding a 'roo, waving his hat in the air and holding a Foster's in the other hand.

You are mistaken about ice hockey!

You Tube

[Pinky the pilot]

It seems to be a necessary thing in these PC days to say something like "we acknowledge that we are on the Oodna-galahbi land and we thank the traditional owners" before having any sort of event.

Yes! And the way things are going, it would not surprise me if one day in the future, such an acknowledgment will be required by law to be made before any Public event!

[Checkboard]

How does this not look like the rear view of someone bending over?

[aroa]

Just stumbled into this thread. Most entertaining !! Wonderful diversity of opinions, racially, flag wise and even bring in those way up north that belt each other up with sticks on the ice. Top flag too

Strangely enough I was designing a future Australian flag recently. Just doodling.
Gone is the Jack replaced by the Chinese flag and in the blue field the federation star is in front of a line up of the state stars.
ie we are on parade for our new masters..!

An earlier rendition was again the Chinese flag top left and all the state stars scattered about the central Covid symbol indicating the country in disarray as the states all head off on their own trajectories. Fed star disappeared.
Sure is a wonderful world , whatever colour we are.

[Mr Proach]

Originally Posted by Checkboard

How does this not look like the rear view of someone bending over?

That is the "Star Plumber's crack" insignia.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

the term 'Norfolk Pine' is known the world over.

I absolutely doubt that. I would hazard that 99% of the world would have no idea what a Norfolk pine is, let alone what a stylised picture of one looks like, however, the Norfolk Islanders don't care, and aren't making exceptions for the world's ignorance.

what does it say about France - it's abstract symbolism

So it actually says nothing at all about France. But people know it as the French flag. Because of market penetration. They have no idea what it means.
Our flag says nothing about Australia to the rest of the world. The only reason it is unknown is because of lack of market penetration. That shouldn't mean we have to dumb it down to kindergarten level to make up for that. Get it out there in enough people's faces, and it could be a picture of a naughts and crosses game and people will equate it with Australia. It's just brand recognition. The fact that Government policies and mandates like the "Made in Australia logo" do not advertise the flag, and choose to use various other images, just perpetuates the cultural cringe and the problem. It's almost like we are "Officially Ashamed" of our flag, and that is plain wrong.

[aroa]

AP you are right. The Eureka flag is a very good one …and looks good, a neat and simple design, and with a very good meaning for Australia.
A concerted fight against rampant grasping bureaucracy and police. Not enough people in Oz know about it’s genesis and it’s a pity it’s been taken over by some bad guys.
It is the first ‘ Australian ‘ flag.

Soon as I beat a corrupt council in court, up went a flag pole and the Eureka flag.!
That is the flag for me as being a symbol of a free citizen in Oz aka Bureaucratalia. The land of spin and bs.
And bureaurats drunk with power.

[megan]

Actually, people should stop perpetuating that 'under the flag' nonsense. The current Australian (colonial) flag was not the official Australian national flag until 1954. Thus, it did not fly and was not 'fought under' - if you want to run that argument you must accept that the entire Australian Pacific forces were under the command of General Douglas MacArthur, therefore, if they fought 'under' any 'flag' it was the 48 star United States' Flag.

You should stop perpetuating nonsense. Both World Wars were fought under the flag. On 3 September 1901, the new Australian flag flew for the first time from the dome of the Royal Exhibition Building in Melbourne.The competition-winning designs were submitted to the British Colonial Secretary in 1902. Prime Minister Edmund Barton announced in the Commonwealth Gazette that King Edward VII had officially approved the design as the flag of Australia on 11 February 1903. The published version made all the stars in the Southern Cross seven-pointed apart from the smallest, and is the same as the current design except the six-pointed Commonwealth Star. The current seven-pointed Commonwealth Star version was introduced by a proclamation dated 8 December 1908. The dimensions were formally gazetted in 1934, and in 1954 the flag became recognised by, and legally defined in, the Flags Act 1953, as the Australian National Flag.

[AerialPerspective]

Originally Posted by aroa

AP you are right. The Eureka flag is a very good one …and looks good, a neat and simple design, and with a very good meaning for Australia.
A concerted fight against rampant grasping bureaucracy and police. Not enough people in Oz know about it’s genesis and it’s a pity it’s been taken over by some bad guys.
It is the first ‘ Australian ‘ flag.

Soon as I beat a corrupt council in court, up went a flag pole and the Eureka flag.!
That is the flag for me as being a symbol of a free citizen in Oz aka Bureaucratalia. The land of spin and bs.
And bureaurats drunk with power.

Agree. And it's also a fact of history when conservatives like to denigrate the rebellion that spurned it that most don't know, that a quite conservative Victorian populace at the time could not render one jury that would find the rebels guilty. Instead they were all acquitted, the Governor recalled to London in disgrace and a few of the rebels elected to the Victorian Parliament which then proceeded to pass some of the most progressive legislation in the Empire that the time, abolishing property qualifications or income qualifications for the franchise (sadly, universal suffrage was still a way off) and had a not insignificant influence in the choice of the term 'Commonwealth of Australia' which got right up the British nose, vehemently objected to by the royals an the UK government but insisted on by the Federation Committee - a lot of the spirit of that defiance can be traced directly back to Eureka.

Not sure if you're aware, but the Eureka Flag is one of only about 3-4 original flags of significance that still exist in the world - two of the others I believe are the British regimental flag that flew at Rorke's Drift and the Star Spangled Banner - the 15 star, 15 stripe US Flag that flew over Ft McHenry and inspired Frances Scott Key to write his poem which eventually became the US national anthem (shortly afterward, the US adopted rules that set the number of stripes at 13 and the number of stars as one for each state).

[AerialPerspective]

Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was

I absolutely doubt that. I would hazard that 99% of the world would have no idea what a Norfolk pine is, let alone what a stylised picture of one looks like, however, the Norfolk Islanders don't care, and aren't making exceptions for the world's ignorance.

So it actually says nothing at all about France. But people know it as the French flag. Because of market penetration. They have no idea what it means.
Our flag says nothing about Australia to the rest of the world. The only reason it is unknown is because of lack of market penetration. That shouldn't mean we have to dumb it down to kindergarten level to make up for that. Get it out there in enough people's faces, and it could be a picture of a naughts and crosses game and people will equate it with Australia. It's just brand recognition. The fact that Government policies and mandates like the "Made in Australia logo" do not advertise the flag, and choose to use various other images, just perpetuates the cultural cringe and the problem. It's almost like we are "Officially Ashamed" of our flag, and that is plain wrong.

Completely the opposite. It's because of the cultural cringe that we are ashamed of the flag because it's not totally Australian. It became the flag by accident not by design and it was a requirement at the time that such 'colonial flags' must include the Union flag to indicate the status of the dominion as 'an imperial dominion of the British Empire'. It is also because we are so unimaginative and artistically moribund that we don't have the guts or the nous to change it.

Canada never had an 'official flag' until 1965 (like us until 1953), their national flag was the Union Flag. They chose for their first 'national flag' an unequivocally Canadian design. Just because some tobacco company held a competition in 1901 and a British arse-licking PM decided to make it official in law in 1953 ("I did but see her passing by and yet I'll love her 'til I die" - sickening, even to largely royalist populace at the time) doesn't mean it 'represents' us.

It has a FOREIGN FLAG on it, thus it can NEVER be Australian.

The clear reason you NEVER see it on most tourism ads, brochures and other collateral, or on aid packages or made in Australia goods is because anyone who sees it overseas is bound to think of Britain.

The ludicrousness of your position is that you seriously think that someone advocating getting the foreign symbol OFF our flag is somehow un-Australian - totally unbelievable.

Hey, guess what. For a long time Finland prominently featured a swastika on their flags and arms - gee, why did they get rid of it, perhaps they just needed to keep it and rely on 'brand recognition'.

[layman]

Jerry Seinfeld thought our flag was the Union Jack at night!

[MickG0105]

Originally Posted by AerialPerspective

... the Governor recalled to London in disgrace ...

Charles Hotham was not "recalled to London in disgrace". That's utter nonsense. Three months after the Eureka Stockade, Hotham was promoted to full Governor and he received a commendation for suppressing the 'outbreak'. Nearly a year after the Eureka Stockade, Hotham resigned the governorship due to failing health and he died in Melbourne a little over a month later.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

The ludicrousness of your position is that you seriously think that someone advocating getting the foreign symbol OFF our flag is somehow un-Australian - totally unbelievable.

I have never said anything of the sort, and you obviously have no idea of what I think.

From a hundred or so posts ago:

I actually quite like the Eureka flag as a design, irrespective of its origins, but that has been appropriated by the bogans, and would not solve the recognition of sundry minorities issue. Perhaps the current flag with the Union Jack removed and the Federation star moved to the canton (examples are out there) might be acceptable?

I will restate my position. I am not against changing our flag. What I am against is changing it to suit the sundry whinges of loud minorities; to suit whatever perceived embarrassment, fad or social issue is the current favourite; or to something finger-painted so that those with the intellects of 3 year olds will not have to think too hard. When I look at our flag, I see our flag. I recognise the Union Jack in the corner for what it is, but I don't see it in singularity above all the rest, like some cannot seem to get past. I like our flag, I think it's a pretty good looking flag compared to some, and until I am presented with an alternate I like, and reasons for change that I like and have some connection, sympathy and more importantly, some investment in, then I'd prefer it not change.