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Accused Pilot

Old 26th Nov 2021, 11:07
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Is it legal to stand an employee down for being accused of a crime?
I don't really think a company that will stand an employee down for not being vaccinated cares about such trifles as presumption of innocence.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 11:19
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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A journalist answers...

Originally Posted by RodH View Post
I see and hear in the Media a JetStar Pilot has been arrested for an alleged crime.
Why do journalists use " sensationalism " headings such as this?
These so called journalists just have to embellish the story to grab attention so it seems.
One would be sure that if he was a taxi driver that would not have been noteworthy enough!!
Anything to make a story better even if it is irrelevant.
Very poor reporting IMOP.
As a journalist (air and road) I will step into the Lions Den that is Mr Thread Starter and try to answer his questions; my name is Daniel, after all.
Some here on PPRuNe may remember me as 'Dantruck' from long ago, but mine was one of those seemingly lost during the mighty changeover. But I digress

The question was first asked: "Why do journalists use " sensationalism " headings such as this?" The answer is to grab your attention. As a writer, my first thought is to get your attention, not least against all the other things demanding your gaze...your iPhone, YouTube, Pornhub.com, etc, etc.

The next question was: "These so called journalists just have to embellish the story to grab attention so it seems." My answer is, sir, you just answered your own question, which rather possess the question: why did you ask when you already knew? That said, asking is always a good thing. Sometimes it can be worth shaking the tree in case something interesting might fall out. As for being. a "so called" journalist; that might be similar to being a 'so-called' pilot. It is true there are journalists (and pilots) of varying degree, but history tells us they largely are, or they are not. In all truth there is no such thing as a 'so-called' anything.

And, true, were he a mere taxi driver - or dare I say, a plumber [see: the footballer Sala crash here on PPRuNe] then, no, absolutely no-one would be interested, would they?

Point is: the job of pilot is a trusted, magnificent being; someone slightly higher up society's list of the great and the good. Therefore, when such a person screws up it is of course more interesting to the newspaper-buying public. That much is clear to most, if not to the originator of this post. Yet, we must not criticise him for asking, for questioning, because it is only by that action twats like me may be held to account. A wise man once stated the only stupid question was the one never asked.

Latterly: "Anything to make a story better even if it is irrelevant." I hope the above makes clear it is/was relevant given the wider issue regarding our trust in those flying us and our loved ones to and fro.

And finally: "Very poor reporting IMOP". What was 'very poor' about it, exactly? It was factually correct, was it not? Never forget the reader bears their own responsibility...you cannot blame everything on others, aka, those damned journo's. Everyone has it in their power to read and dismiss if said story stinks. The next morning that same individual will then decide to buy the same newspaper, or - shock horror - choose an alternative. My point is Mr Thread Starter should not be so quick as to dismiss the intelligence of other readers, just as no journalist should ever underestimate the intelligence of the said, same reader, We all do so at our peril.

Hope that helps...,

Dan

Last edited by Dog on Cat3; 26th Nov 2021 at 11:40.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 12:28
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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. Yeah not accused, charged. Big difference.
That is exactly what charged means FFS. You are accused of committing an act or crime, the police charge the suspect, they then have to prove that in court unless the defendant pleads guilty.
Which part donít you understand?
My point was that being accused of a crime is a flimsy justification for standing an employee down. Concern for distraction and flight safety is valid.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 14:53
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FLGOFF View Post
...There was a senior RCAF pilot who ended up being a serial killer as well, there's a detailed video showing the police interview on YouTube...
Russell Williams.
Youtube search
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 18:11
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo View Post
An Airbus check Captain doesnít fit the murderer profile. I nearly fell over when I heard the news reporting a checkie was arrested.

These are highly skilled, paid, and well regarded professionals by the public. The safety of thousands are in my hands daily, they put trust in me, and my team deliver it back to them.

Still canít sort of believe the whole thing and the type of person involved, but it is what it is.
I very much doubt that the general public are aware what a TRI/TRE actually is.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 19:27
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by matkat View Post
I very much doubt that the general public are aware what a TRI/TRE actually is.
I think most can deduce that an instructor/examiner at an airline is not a junior position.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 20:21
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
That is exactly what charged means FFS. You are accused of committing an act or crime, the police charge the suspect, they then have to prove that in court unless the defendant pleads guilty.
Which part donít you understand?
My point was that being accused of a crime is a flimsy justification for standing an employee down. Concern for distraction and flight safety is valid.
I assume that it is a it hard to perform any useful duties from within the confines of the Melbourne Remand Centre.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 20:30
  #48 (permalink)  
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Dan
Some of what you say makes sense and I agree with you but some does not , at least me me anyway.
In para. 3 I did not ask a question I made and observation.
Para 5 . I think you seem to use a bit too much praise to describe a pilots job Ie. " magnificent being ' still I guess that's journalistic licence and that's your right. As a Pilot I would like to think you are right but alas I do not.
Lastly. I still think it's " poor reporting " as it's just a lot of "attention grabbing headline wording " and not really necessary but I guess you think it is as is your right but I don't.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 20:30
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Iron Bar View Post
Absolute discretion - Iíll expand. The head of security who has sign off on all group ASIC may withhold or withdraw an ASIC based on evidence indicating the applicant or holder is not suitable, including hearsay or evidence that is otherwise not admissible in a Court. If an allegation is made against an employee and the boss believes it, ASIC can be withdrawn and no right of appeal.
Which isnít ďabsoluteĒ discretionÖ.

And there is a right of reviewÖ
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 20:40
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FLGOFF View Post
There was a senior RCAF pilot who ended up being a serial killer as well, there's a detailed video showing the police interview on YouTube. Whilst you can have these types of people from any background or profession, it's easy to understand the shock factor of it all. I would argue that generally most killers do fit the "stereotype", however it's easy to name a list of those who don't because those ones naturally get more attention.
Look up Colonel Russell Williams, RCAF.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 20:53
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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There is some quite easy to understand reasoning of why journalists promote with sensationalism. A journalist earns money through being popular, that is, a news group will contract or hire them based on how popular a story could be. Popularity, as in readership or views, translates directly into subscriptions and advertising revenue, these are companies after all. When a news story breaks unless you have an exclusive interview, you are just covering something that almost anyone can get access to, therefore to make some difference to just reading off the news in boring monotonous fashion you have to jazz it up to sell it for you or your company to stand out. Emotive and persuasive writing are part of English 101. Now apart from us being mystical, magical beings that glitter in sunlight and bath naked by moon beams, pilots are perceived by the press as a closed shop, and a sort of elite white collar mob as well as generally trustworthy and upstanding citizens. The headlines are not an opportunity to drag the profession down, its quite simply twanging on the community heart strings of 'how could this be' and leaving more questions as to 'why'. The 'why' question will leave readership hanging for more information and more sales.

I don't think anyone will climb on a J* flight and sweat in fear that if they go to the loo a criminally insane Captain is waiting there to shiv them, or worse. At best the oldies who comment on why there is a 'woman' at the controls or a high school student might be comforted its not a 50+ year old male psychopath.

Things that drag a profession down, watching scruffy, unkempt, out of uniform employees walking around like they are kids in a schoolyard. Throwing a craft around like a war hero evading zeros with passengers on board doesn't impress them either. The public want a clean well edumacated smooth flying fit looking professional up front and don't want to remember the flight for anything other than a good latte or sparkling beverage they drank. The odd criminal in the job doesn't drag us all down.

Last edited by 43Inches; 26th Nov 2021 at 21:07.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 22:30
  #52 (permalink)  
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It's quite easy to understand why Journalists do this type of thing and I guess I should not have " asked why " but should have said that I don't think its warranted. A bit more thought before the typing would have been a bit better in my posting.
Having said that IMOP I still think it's rather poor reporting but I suppose the Journo's have to make a dollar or two with their " attention grabbing ' wording and nothing will change them.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 22:42
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with you on how they can overstate things quite often and move into the blatantly wrong or cringe areas just to get a response. However I also see it as a necessary evil, freedom of the press and their right to express opinions, right or wrong is critical to our freedoms and democracy. If we start to get to touchy on what can and can't be covered and how its covered, well it gets 'covered up'. The main issue is to take the theatrics and attention grabbing for the show it is and read what the real story is from informed sources. Imagine what governments and others would have got away with since ww1 without press freedoms and universal coverage, it plays a big part in letting the masses hold those in power accountable. Although it can also be used for bad, but thats what comes with it.

BTW with the same freedoms we have as much right to criticise the press when they are wrong and put forward alternate ideas, like this site allows. Some articles may be intentionally crossing lines to promote debate on a subject, that is what the author is hoping for. Others might be trying to assist the investigation by getting information to as many as possible for leads, so a big sensational headline can grab more in. So it might not always be only about the cash. There are also journalists out there who do it for morals, ethics and trying to help others, not just for the headlines, the headlines are a tool.
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 22:54
  #54 (permalink)  

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Why presume he’s been stood down because he’s suspected of committing murder (subsequently charged but still innocent until proven guilty), as opposed to the fact that as he’s in custody for an unknown time, he’s unable to perform any work duties?
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Old 26th Nov 2021, 23:28
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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He should get paid any outstanding holiday pay , sick leave (?) then LWOP for maybe 2 years while itís sorted ?

Yes , journalists write to grab attention they can also write to get access to the chairmanís lounge ? Journalists also write what Murdoch wants to read .
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Old 27th Nov 2021, 00:19
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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As for being. a "so called" journalist; that might be similar to being a 'so-called' pilot
Generalising about journalists is no more helpful than generalising about pilots. Consider that journalists uncovered the following :-
  • the My Lai massacre (young ķns might have to Google that)
  • Watergate
  • Abu Ghraib
  • various dodgy events in Queensland that led to the Fitzgerald commission
  • News of the World (managers not journalists) instigation of phone-tapping in the UK
We know there are good and bad eggs in every profession, but fortunately the bad eggs are few in number.
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Old 27th Nov 2021, 00:46
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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I would imagine regardless of the outcome I highly doubt there will be a job there. The company would rather pay an individual out and not return in this case.
So what happens if he is found not guilty? Or it gets thrown out of court or Police decide that there isn't enough evidence or they have the wrong guy?? You should not be fired just because the Police think you MAY have committed a crime.

Some sort of leave until the matter is decided would be a more justifiable position.


What was 'very poor' about it, exactly? It was factually correct, was it not?
Factual but biased. The guy has only be charged and they don't even have a body at this point. The couple could still be alive for all we know.

Last edited by neville_nobody; 27th Nov 2021 at 01:28.
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Old 27th Nov 2021, 01:33
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 43Inches View Post
Throwing a craft around like a war hero evading zeros with passengers on board doesn't impress them either.
Right up until the pax need/want a Sully-type up front. Being able to fly accurately and smoothly, whether a high-speed descent, around the pattern or hand flying a raw data ILS was fast becoming a lost art where I was flying last ( and we didn't wear our hats )

Anyways, back on topic, newspapers are correct about his elite bushcraft. Did a Tassie wilderness expedition looking for Tassie tigers and have some great snaps ( no you can't have them Murdoch press ). So many innocent parties and who can forget what the trashy newspapers did a few years back with the young court clerk in a relationship with an older magistrate. Committed suicide and not an apology to be had.
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Old 27th Nov 2021, 01:45
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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It would be a very uncomfortable workplace for him and his wife to work in even if he was cleared. Possibly a PR problem for the company also.

I highly doubt he or she will return ever. I donít think they would make that choice to return anyway, should he be cleared. His wife has been pictured in uniform, I donít think she could work in such a public environment anymore, probably just disappear and start a new life.
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Old 27th Nov 2021, 04:03
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Claret View Post
Why presume heís been stood down because heís suspected of committing murder (subsequently charged but still innocent until proven guilty), as opposed to the fact that as heís in custody for an unknown time, heís unable to perform any work duties?
"Good morning ladies and gentlemen, this is your Captain speaking, due to circumstances beyond my control, I shall be working from home today, have a nice flight."
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