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QF mandates Vaccine

Old 20th Aug 2021, 17:36
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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As far as I know, these "vaccines" don't meet the US CDCs definition of a vaccine. They are also NOT approved and thus experimental. While not a law, below is a copy of the Nuremberg Code.

Some questions for the "mandatory vaccine" brigade.

1) If the vaccines are so safe, why can I not sue the producers if it turns out not to be so safe?
2) If the vaccines protect the vaccinated so well, what the heck do you care if somebody else doesn't take the shot?
3) What are the long term effects of these vaccines?
4) The pfizer and moderna vaccines contain mRNA molecules. These molecules are injected, instructing your cells to start producing a 'spike' protein. Your immune systems attacks the spike protein, giving some protection. Why don't we inject the spike protein directly?
5) The mRNA molecules used in pfizer and moderna instruct ALL cells to produce this spike protein. What is the effect if liver cells, kidney cells and brain cells start producing this spike protein?
6) What is the end-game? Zero deaths? Zero transmissions? 100% vaccination rates? Lifelong booster shots? The total collapse of the economy? Everybody chipped? I, for one, have not heard a single politician comment on that.
7) Why are politicians in charge of what is supposed to be a health crisis?

Originally Posted by Nuremberg Code
Permissible Medical Experiments

Originally Posted by Nuremberg Code
The great weight of the evidence before us to effect that certain types of medical experiments on human beings, when kept within reasonably well-defined bounds, conform to the ethics of the medical profession generally. The protagonists of the practice of human experimentation justify their views on the basis that such experiments yield results for the good of society that are unprocurable by other methods or means of study. All agree, however, that certain basic principles must be observed in order to satisfy moral, ethical and legal concepts:
  1. The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential. This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, overreaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment.

    The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs, or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity.
  2. The experiment should be such as to yield fruitful results for the good of society, unprocurable by other methods or means of study, and not random and unnecessary in nature.
  3. The experiment should be so designed and based on the results of animal experimentation and a knowledge of the natural history of the disease or other problem under study that the anticipated results justify the performance of the experiment.
  4. The experiment should be so conducted as to avoid all unnecessary physical and mental suffering and injury.
  5. No experiment should be conducted where there is an a priori reason to believe that death or disabling injury will occur; except, perhaps, in those experiments where the experimental physicians also serve as subjects.
  6. The degree of risk to be taken should never exceed that determined by the humanitarian importance of the problem to be solved by the experiment.
  7. Proper preparations should be made and adequate facilities provided to protect the experimental subject against even remote possibilities of injury, disability or death.
  8. The experiment should be conducted only by scientifically qualified persons. The highest degree of skill and care should be required through all stages of the experiment of those who conduct or engage in the experiment.
  9. During the course of the experiment the human subject should be at liberty to bring the experiment to an end if he has reached the physical or mental state where continuation of the experiment seems to him to be impossible.
  10. During the course of the experiment the scientist in charge must be prepared to terminate the experiment at any stage, if he has probable cause to believe, in the exercise of the good faith, superior skill and careful judgment required of him, that a continuation of the experiment is likely to result in injury, disability, or death to the experimental subject.

Last edited by KingAir1978; 20th Aug 2021 at 21:15.
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Old 20th Aug 2021, 18:39
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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People on this thread have to get a hobby or a life.
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Old 20th Aug 2021, 22:26
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KingAir1978 View Post
As far as I know, these "vaccines" don't meet the US CDCs definition of a vaccine
What would lead you to believe that?

Originally Posted by KingAir1978 View Post
Some questions for the "mandatory vaccine" brigade.
I hope you don't mind if someone other than the "mandatory vaccine" brigade answers a couple of the science questions .

Originally Posted by KingAir1978 View Post
4) The pfizer and moderna vaccines contain mRNA molecules. These molecules are injected, instructing your cells to start producing a 'spike' protein. Your immune systems attacks the spike protein, giving some protection. Why don't we inject the spike protein directly?
Because of the quantity of spike protein you need to introduce it couldn't be done by injection, it would need to be infused over a period of time - utterly impractical for a vaccination program.

Originally Posted by KingAir1978 View Post
5) The mRNA molecules used in pfizer and moderna instruct ALL cells to produce this spike protein. What is the effect if liver cells, kidney cells and brain cells start producing this spike protein?
Your starting premise is incorrect; the mRNA is not introduced to ALL cells. The reason that the vaccine dose is so small, less than half a millilitre, and injected into muscle is to confine the affected cells to the muscle. That's why dead arm is a common temporary side-effect of the injection. The mRNA doesn't circulate in your body, it is far too fragile to make it out of the injection site.



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Old 20th Aug 2021, 22:52
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Full approval expected possibly Monday for Pfizer in the USA.

New York Times…..

The approval is expected to pave the way for a series of vaccination requirements by public and private organizations who were awaiting firmer regulatory backing before implementing mandates. Federal and state health officials are also hoping that an approved vaccine will draw interest from some Americans who have been hesitant to take one that was only authorized for emergency use, a phenomenon suggested by recent polling.

Some universities and hospitals are expected to mandate inoculation once a vaccine is fully approved. The Pentagon earlier this month said it plans to make Covid vaccinations mandatory for the country’s 1.3 million active-duty troops “no later” than the middle of next month, or sooner if the F.D.A. acts earlier.
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Old 20th Aug 2021, 22:55
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Devil

People do realise that a frontline vaccinated person can spread the disease the same as a non vaccinated person.
This mandate is only to save money and lost time at work , you’re kidding if your company thinks of you as people .
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Old 20th Aug 2021, 23:03
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4) The pfizer and moderna vaccines contain mRNA molecules. These molecules are injected, instructing your cells to start producing a 'spike' protein. Your immune systems attacks the spike protein, giving some protection. Why don't we inject the spike protein directly?
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Because they gave the job of developing mRNA vaccines to the work experience kid, and he just never thought of doing it that way.


5) The mRNA molecules used in pfizer and moderna instruct ALL cells to produce this spike protein. What is the effect if liver cells, kidney cells and brain cells start producing this spike protein?[size=13px]

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You will turn yellow, piss yourself, and die of brain failure. As has obviously been happening to millions all over the world.

Honestly…
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Old 20th Aug 2021, 23:06
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Originally Posted by Rabbitwear View Post
People do realise that a frontline vaccinated person can spread the disease the same as a non vaccinated person.
This mandate is only to save money and lost time at work , you’re kidding if your company thinks of you as people .
No one ever said that the vaccine eliminates the virus in the body. It is not a ‘stopper’ vaccine. If you are vaccinated and you become infected and symptomatic, you will most likely shed less virus particles and they will be weaker, reducing the chances of you infecting someone else, and if so, with a weaker virus, etc, etc….

As for being just a part number in the giant machine that is my employer, well I agree, does anybody think otherwise?

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Old 20th Aug 2021, 23:11
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Originally Posted by KingAir1978 View Post

What are the long term effects of these vaccines?



These particular vaccines, we’ll find out in the future I guess, but mRNA has been in development since 1992, I think they have a pretty good idea if they are safe or not……

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Old 21st Aug 2021, 01:50
  #89 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by Rabbitwear View Post
People do realise that a frontline vaccinated person can spread the disease the same as a non vaccinated person.
No, not “the same”.

The vaccine significantly decreases your chance of getting Covid. If you get Covid the vaccine significantly decreases the likelihood of passing it on to someone else. It also significantly decreases the likelihood of getting sick. If you do get sick the vaccine significantly decreases the likelihood of you ending up in hospital. If you end up in hospital, the vaccine significantly decreases the likelihood of you ending up in ICU. If you end up in ICU the vaccine significantly decreases your chance of dying.

All of this is repeated in data from all over the world.

We’re all going to get Covid at some stage. The data is clear that you’re much better off having caught it when vaccinated than having caught it when not.

Personally I encourage everyone to get vax’d. The decision is a no brainer. I can understand some restrictions between now when not everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated and the time when everyone has had that opportunity. When we get to that second point though, I’d prefer to allow people’s own choices dictate the outcome.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 01:57
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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I’ve no idea why the “Nuremberg Code” was posted on here but I believe it meets the threshold of Godwin’s Law.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 02:15
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Originally Posted by Rabbitwear View Post
People do realise that a frontline vaccinated person can spread the disease the same as a non vaccinated person.
This is simply not true. A vaccinated frontline person is FAR less likely to catch virus. As a result they are far less likely to pass on the virus. It is not the same at all.

It is still possible for them to catch the virus, albeit much less likely, but they are extremely unlikely to suffer major ill effects or die.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 02:27
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2) If the vaccines protect the vaccinated so well, what the heck do you care if somebody else doesn't take the shot?


Three reasons that I can think of:

1) As has been mentioned, vaccines moderate transmission. Anyone that has ever done uni and read a research study will know about moderation factors. Plenty of evidence that transmission is moderated by vaccination, not eliminated.

2) The Covid sick taking up hospital beds poses a problem for people needing treatment for other ailments. A simple issue could end up being deadly because no hospital beds are available. This is starting to become a problem in the USA. Unless of course the anti-vaxxers promise not to go to hospital when they get sick from the disease.

3) Increase in payments for disabilities. There are many people (30%?) ending up with long Covid. Some will never recover and be supported by welfare measures. These increases in welfare will most likely to be paid out of increased taxation of the vaccinated healthy population. To put simply, society will have to pay for the stupidity of the anti-vaxxers who end up long term disabled. This is a dilemma now facing the UK.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 04:12
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Long Covid Unvaccinated. It's about 1 in 6 with at least one debilitating long covid symptom and 1 in 3 with a long covid symptom not necessarily all that debilitating but still of concern all the same as determined among our own that were infected during the VIC event a year ago.

Long Covid Vaccinated. We really want to know those numbers but it's too early to tell, so far we don't know anyone who presents as such. If it comes to pass that there are none or a very rare occurrence then rush out an get vaccinated as soon as you can.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 05:12
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Mick - you seem to know what you are talking about. People who know what they are on about have no place what so ever on PPRuNe.

Kingair1978 - words fail me.This is the idiocy of the Facbook crowd, something I wouldn't expect from a pilot.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 06:38
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
Except the FDA documentation specifically says that it is not an approved drug and it is up to you to decide if the risk is worth it. It's just because of circumstances it has been exempted. Bit of a difference between deciding if you want to take the risk vs being made to do so by your employer.

Honestly I think QF are getting desperate so they figure most staff are going to get it anyway and the risk of someone losing their job as a result of the vaccine is low enough to virtue signal it.

The problem for all airlines, is that unless their crews are vaccinated there are going to be majors hurdles to them being allowed to fly into countries. Certain countries may be ok, others will be no go spots.

Nobody is being “made” to have the vaccine. They aren’t pinning you down and sticking the needle in. It is just a mandatory item for employment. So it is still your choice, just that your choice comes with consequences. Don’t want it go work somewhere else if you can. Sounds fair, and you still have control.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 06:44
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Originally Posted by highflyer40 View Post
The problem for all airlines, is that unless their crews are vaccinated there are going to be majors hurdles to them being allowed to fly into countries. Certain countries may be ok, others will be no go spots.

Nobody is being “made” to have the vaccine. They aren’t pinning you down and sticking the needle in. It is just a mandatory item for employment. So it is still your choice, just that your choice comes with consequences. Don’t want it go work somewhere else if you can. Sounds fair, and you still have control.
And the problem with that is that the vaccines are only good for about 5 months then you need a booster, say twice a year. How long do you think people will accept that, one year two maybe. If any significant number of them say "we're not going to do that anymore" which they will, where does that leave your Company Mandate.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 06:52
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Originally Posted by itsnotthatbloodyhard View Post
Because they gave the job of developing mRNA vaccines to the work experience kid, and he just never thought of doing it that way.



You will turn yellow, piss yourself, and die of brain failure. As has obviously been happening to millions all over the world.

Honestly…
If you just injected the spike protein it would be broken down within hours. You would need to have a vaccine a couple times a day. I think the current one works better don’t you?
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 07:00
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Originally Posted by highflyer40 View Post
Nobody is being “made” to have the vaccine. They aren’t pinning you down and sticking the needle in. It is just a mandatory item for employment. So it is still your choice, just that your choice comes with consequences. Don’t want it go work somewhere else if you can. Sounds fair, and you still have control.
To mandate a company requirement for it's existing employees and then try to claim they "chose" it in order to remain employed doesn't pass the pub test.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 09:32
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Who cares? The pub is shut anyway, and when it opens they won’t be deciding case law there.
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Old 21st Aug 2021, 10:04
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Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
To mandate a company requirement for it's existing employees and then try to claim they "chose" it in order to remain employed doesn't pass the pub test.
The public (pub test) don't care. If you don't want the vaccine, you can leave. There are lots of people who will happily take your place.
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