VA pilots threatened with AWARD wages

[sandersonpab]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

It would be apparent the company is also using Pprune.

Yep. Management are desperate and pulling out all stops to get this voted up.

[Break Right]

Originally Posted by sandersonpab

Sadly, we can't rely on the unions, who seem to be in the pockets of the company...

9 posts since July 2021. You’re what they call a bot and clearly someone who has no idea what you’re talking about. Give proof that the unions are in the companies pockets and you’ll have some street cred, otherwise you’re talking out your ar$e

[ad-astra]

Originally Posted by Blackout

I think the MAJOR concern here is that after everything the company has been through with the constant shifting and changing,( i.e Administration, COVID, MOU's, change in manuals, change in Work Rules and now this EA) the mental health of the Pilot group is being tested.

To think that the company will not provide you with a Sick Day payment after the MCG is in my opinion, wrong on every level.

To think that they are in a way, FORCING Pilots to work whilst Sick above MCG, during a CV19 Pandemic and after having sacrificed so much already, is immoral. For eg, If your above your MCG and call in Sick just for your First day of duty on a 4 day trip, the company can possibly take ALL those 4 days off you and you will receive no money at all.

Its a pretty important issue which should be addressed, if they actually care for the well being of their staff !

Blackout,

Is this issue one that should drive a NO vote and send us to FWC?
I think not.
Is the policy wrong?
Yes

If I am sick I will call in sick.
It is only the 'cost' to the pilot that is 'forcing' a pilot to go to work sick, not the company.
If a pilot elects to go to work unfit then we/he/she has a bigger problem.

Yes in the fullness of time it may very well be addressed (I hope so) but considering the voting period starts in two days I would say that nothing will be changing in their offer.
The Award by the way offers 5 less days personal leave.

[sandersonpab]

Originally Posted by non_state_actor

How do you come to that conclusion? There are 3 unions signing this document. Do you think they all got together and conspired to screw pilots?

Yep. Don't you think it's strange that the company was able to recently hire 100 pilots, during lockdown, when there was no flying and there's an imminent stand down? There's been some deal brokered between the unions and the company, hence the fear mongering campaign to push pilots to vote this EBA up. Every time someone mentions they spoke to FW, the unions send out an urgent advice urging people to vote up the EBA or end up on the award.

Originally Posted by non_state_actor

Again do you think you will be able to go to Fair Work and get better than this? What are you going to do if the company comes back with a inferior "take it or leave it" deal? Vote no again then go to the award and hope the judge is on your side?? If you want to sprout No you need to come up with your plan B and show us where it leads.

You don't just go to FW and seek to terminate an EA after a couple of negotiations. FW can only terminate the agreement after protracted negotiations and IF FW IS satisfied that it is not contrary to the public interest to do so, and that termination would be appropriate, taking into account all of the circumstances. It's a long, expensive process and of the thousands of applications made to terminate, isn't it interesting that only 3 companies that have been successful in having their EBAs terminated in the past 7 years? Read those cases. The fear mongering of pilots ending up on the award is abysmal to say the least.

[duckbelly]

I’m one of the older ones in VA, not quite retiring age yet, but heading towards it. Also been through the Ansett debacle where I had to sell my house, my car etc.
There are a few things that people need to bear in mind when having a go at the Company, and giving the proverbial finger to the mooted EBA.
1. 24 months ago VA was on its knees and so close to going bust it wasn’t funny. Bain, bless them, saw (presumably) financial potential in buying us out and took a punt on us. Enter COVID. Companies the likes of Bain, with a considerable amount of financial clout up their sleeves could have walked away and taken a 3-4% loss on their total finances. They didn’t.
2. All the little signs I see around the company point to owners that would like to see the business thrive. By this I mean new ipads, new IT systems, new ADL base, increase in number of airframes, rehiring of wide body crew etc etc. After all, they can’t onsell/IPO it if it isn’t well run and making money. For that to happen they need the staff onside as well.
3. This is not a perfect EBA. If it was a perfect one for the Pilots, it would’ve been a terrible one for the company. And the opposite is true as well.
4. What we have, then, is a compromise between the two parties. There are always going to be areas of contention and disagreement, such is the nature of bargaining.

I know personally some of the management pilots involved in the bargaining process. They are individuals of the highest integrity and would never try and force something unspeakable on us. They’ve been given a mandate by VA to reduce costs (I think 15%) and they have endeavoured to do that in the least painful way.
I for one will be voting FOR this EBA. I believe in the current climate, it’s the best outcome for us all.
We won’t go hungry and we won’t be out on the streets, something that we came perilously close to a short time ago.

[The Baron]

You had me until the last paragraph. If only that was true. No

[mohikan]

Originally Posted by duckbelly

I’m one of the older ones in VA, not quite retiring age yet, but heading towards it. Also been through the Ansett debacle where I had to sell my house, my car etc.
There are a few things that people need to bear in mind when having a go at the Company, and giving the proverbial finger to the mooted EBA.
1. 24 months ago VA was on its knees and so close to going bust it wasn’t funny. Bain, bless them, saw (presumably) financial potential in buying us out and took a punt on us. Enter COVID. Companies the likes of Bain, with a considerable amount of financial clout up their sleeves could have walked away and taken a 3-4% loss on their total finances. They didn’t.
2. All the little signs I see around the company point to owners that would like to see the business thrive. By this I mean new ipads, new IT systems, new ADL base, increase in number of airframes, rehiring of wide body crew etc etc. After all, they can’t onsell/IPO it if it isn’t well run and making money. For that to happen they need the staff onside as well.
3. This is not a perfect EBA. If it was a perfect one for the Pilots, it would’ve been a terrible one for the company. And the opposite is true as well.
4. What we have, then, is a compromise between the two parties. There are always going to be areas of contention and disagreement, such is the nature of bargaining.

I know personally some of the management pilots involved in the bargaining process. They are individuals of the highest integrity and would never try and force something unspeakable on us. They’ve been given a mandate by VA to reduce costs (I think 15%) and they have endeavoured to do that in the least painful way.
I for one will be voting FOR this EBA. I believe in the current climate, it’s the best outcome for us all.
We won’t go hungry and we won’t be out on the streets, something that we came perilously close to a short time ago.

You had me until you wrote "ex Ansett", and presumably the managers are ex blue shirts as well

As you say you are near retirement. No doubt financially secure. Desperate to get a few more years of beer money, so if the younger generation goes under a bus to help that ambition so be it.

Some leopards never change their spots.

[Break Right]

Originally Posted by sandersonpab

Yep. Don't you think it's strange that the company was able to recently hire 100 pilots, during lockdown, when there was no flying and there's an imminent stand down? There's been some deal brokered between the unions and the company, hence the fear mongering campaign to push pilots to vote this EBA up. Every time someone mentions they spoke to FW, the unions send out an urgent advice urging people to vote up the EBA or end up on the award.



You don't just go to FW and seek to terminate an EA after a couple of negotiations. FW can only terminate the agreement after protracted negotiations and IF FW IS satisfied that it is not contrary to the public interest to do so, and that termination would be appropriate, taking into account all of the circumstances. It's a long, expensive process and of the thousands of applications made to terminate, isn't it interesting that only 3 companies that have been successful in having their EBAs terminated in the past 7 years? Read those cases. The fear mongering of pilots ending up on the award is abysmal to say the least.

Sorry, but I think you need to get off the cones!

[KRviator]

The other thing to consider - and I speak from experience here, having had my salary compared to a surgeon (and unsurprisingly during EBA negotiations) - is "What will the public think if we go on strike over <X,Y & Z>?"

There's already a belief that Pilots are overpaid bus driver's these days, and rejecting an EBA that offers:

I am being offered over $200K (fly or not - guaranteed) with 13 days off in 28 (Checkies over $262K)
I am being offered over $260K to fly 70 hours in 28
I am being offered over $270K to fly 80 hours in 28 and take 6 weeks leave.
I am being offered $170 per day in overnighting expenses.

is not going to win anyone any friends except for those already working, or about to start, with VA. The court of public opinion would be well and truly against you, when you consider how many people have lost work, or are out of work due to The Pestilence and you're seen to be turning your nose up at an EBA that will be said to offer a 1st Year FO $150K+ for those kinds of "hours".

[megle2]

Just conveying my thanks to all you guys finding it difficult to accept $150,000+ Your spending habits are helping the AUS economy tick along.

[duckbelly]

Originally Posted by mohikan

You had me until you wrote "ex Ansett", and presumably the managers are ex blue shirts as well

As you say you are near retirement. No doubt financially secure. Desperate to get a few more years of beer money, so if the younger generation goes under a bus to help that ambition so be it.

Some leopards never change their spots.

Ah Monihan. Such cynicism is painful to read.
-Not as financially secure as I’d like to be due to an inability to save for about ten years after Ansett
-But definitely not desperate.
-No, the managers I know are not ex blue shirts. And why do you say that with so much disdain? What is it about being ex Ansett that seems to get peoples backs up? Last time I looked we were pretty much the same as yourself and every other person on the planet.
-And finally, yes, I do change my spots. I’ve had to many times after nearly 40 years in the game. It’s called dealing with reality.

We agree, it’s not perfect. We just don’t agree on HOW unperfect it is.
Me, I’m going to stop and smell the roses now, regardless of whether it gets up or down.

[t_cas]

So, Bain bought Virgin “before” the pandemic; not out of administration because of the pandemic? Might need to correct that foundation faux pas.

These type of businesses have funds to buy highly valuable distressed assets, at a time when most are hunkering down trying to survive. Then they extract as much blood from it as possible. Grow or hold it for profit and then sell when a good offer comes along.

This is not about fairness or equity. It is about greed.

Running over judicial systems and government bodies puts into perspective the small speed hump that employees (individuals) are. This is who they are. The head of the local ship is the equivalent to a praying mantis.

opinion only.

[Lookleft]

No, the managers I know are not ex blue shirts. And why do you say that with so much disdain? What is it about being ex Ansett that seems to get peoples backs up? Last time I looked we were pretty much the same as yourself and every other person on the planet.

Same response at Jetstar. I don't get it. Its been 20 years people, time to let your grudges and hang-ups go. If a person is a pr$%k at your current airline then they were the same at a previous airline. So the logical conclusion is that it is about the individual not who they work for.

[Agent_86]

Originally Posted by t_cas

The head of the local ship is the equivalent to a praying mantis.

Just waiting to snatch her cool $50mil from the deal before running for the hills

[sandersonpab]

So let me get this straight, Virgin rehires 88 pilots in the middle of our biggest lockdown (training and wages alone is equivalent $6 million) and gives $42 million in shares to Hardlicka and the execs? Sounds like a company in financial dire straights, NOT.

[anonfly]

Originally Posted by KRviator

The other thing to consider - and I speak from experience here, having had my salary compared to a surgeon (and unsurprisingly during EBA negotiations) - is "What will the public think if we go on strike over <X,Y & Z>?"

There's already a belief that Pilots are overpaid bus driver's these days, and rejecting an EBA that offers:
is not going to win anyone any friends except for those already working, or about to start, with VA. The court of public opinion would be well and truly against you, when you consider how many people have lost work, or are out of work due to The Pestilence and you're seen to be turning your nose up at an EBA that will be said to offer a 1st Year FO $150K+ for those kinds of "hours".

I always find the court of public opinion a fascinating argument to not stand up for one self.
The public aren’t the one doing the job.
Weirdly I think right now the public couldn’t care.
Look at the tourism industry, entertainment, cafe, bars, small business owners that have been wiped out. The public doesn’t care. Apparently it’s going gang busters the economy. People have short memories and even shorter attention spans. They only care about themselves. So unless they are directly affected by PIA I think they are happy going about their merrily way.
Also as a pub test ask people what “airline” pilots earn. It’s always way over estimated 9/10. The answers will surprise you.
Management certainly couldn’t give a toss about public opinion. Mandating a 15% cost in “savings” but awarding $42 million in “shares” to the executives?!!! It’s taking from one pocket and putting it in the other.
All EBAs were part of the KPI required for that $42 million in shares to be awarded along with other metrics.
The matter boils down to the fact the pilot body is stuck between a rock and a hard place. No good options but to tread carefully.
Myself I’m still making up my mind. I go from yes to no daily, multiples times per day.

[Agent_86]

Virgin Australia set to stand down staff as lockdowns halt travel

By Nick Bonyhady

Virgin Australia is poised to announce a fresh wave of stand downs across its workforce as soon as Wednesday as the aviation industry struggles with lockdowns and border closures that have slashed travel around the country.

Several industry sources familiar with Virgin’s thinking, but who were not authorised to speak on the record, said the lockdowns could affect more than 1000 staff at the airline.



A spokeswoman for Virgin Australia said the airline was “consulting with unions to manage the reduced demand in flying and the available hours of work over the next 1-2 months.”

It comes a day after Qantas announced it would stand down about 2500 staff after its flights dropped to 40 per cent of pre-lockdown levels and two days after Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce unveiled a new domestic support package for the industry.

[SierraZuluGolf]

So now with the extension of the MOU till almost the end of the year surely this gives Virgin all the flexibility they need? Would it be prudent to sign an EA under more realistic market conditions. Like when the state borders are open and theoretically more of the population is vaccinated?

[galdian]

Originally Posted by SierraZuluGolf

So now with the extension of the MOU till almost the end of the year surely this gives Virgin all the flexibility they need? Would it be prudent to sign an EA under more realistic market conditions. Like when the state borders are open and theoretically more of the population is vaccinated?

Will V3 still be around by the time the intangible timelines of "state borders are open" and "more of the population is vaccinated" become more defined?

Can't imagine Bain heavy honchos being happy about continuing to shovel ****loads of $$$$ into the entity for a very unclear period of time.

[sandersonpab]

Originally Posted by SierraZuluGolf

So now with the extension of the MOU till almost the end of the year surely this gives Virgin all the flexibility they need? Would it be prudent to sign an EA under more realistic market conditions. Like when the state borders are open and theoretically more of the population is vaccinated?

That's EXACTLY right! So the market conditions improve once the MOU expires and we get shafted with a **** pay and conditions in the EA? They're desperate and are using fear mongering (and spreading misinformation) to brainwash us into thinking we will end up on the award. It's all hogwash and the masses are buying into it, when it's clear they will NEVER succeed trying to terminate the EA. Given we will now be stood down, I say we continue negotiations. Every time we come to negotiate an EA, they take years (to avoid any opportunity of a pay increase) and now they want to negotiate this EA at the speed of light? Come on.