Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Degree of difficulty

Old 25th Apr 2021, 03:02
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Won't be long before such App's will just be written in the history books, progress will change the way we control A/C!
Single pilot twin turbine is considered the most demanding, something fewer & fewer pilots will experience.
I for one don't miss the circling App's at night in rain with the 'min' viz located at remote Pacific dromes surrounded by rocky clouds!
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Old 25th Apr 2021, 11:56
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Any of the geriatric twins (turbine or otherwise) with dodgy old monochrome radars take the cake in the wet season. The countless hours I’ve wasted trying unsuccessfully to decipher what the various shades of green or amber meant. For extra dramatic tension, add that to a non precision approach with round dials.
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Old 25th Apr 2021, 12:43
  #23 (permalink)  
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No one has mentioned the uniquely OZ invention of DME homing using the analogue display.
Dark and stormy night single pilot in a piston twin out the back of Woop Woop with only runway lights as a ground reference.

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Old 26th Apr 2021, 00:03
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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his statements was that flying a Cat 3 coupled approach to the minima was the most difficult approach you could do. He was claiming this to pilots who had experience flying NDB circling approaches in the dark, in the middle of the Pacific and that he considered the circling approach was somewhat easier.
Yes unfortunately that attitude is common amongst a certain generation of QF pilots. There certainly seems to be a 'put down' culture which builds them up as being heroes.

Anyone who has done both wouldn't even enter into the argument because there isn't one. The fact this guy even wants to talk about it probably show his lack of flying experience.

I'd agree with the statement about the hardest part of low viz ops is finding the gate.
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Old 26th Apr 2021, 07:27
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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I fly three or four Cat3 a year in Europe, when we are flying at all, that is. I flew circling NDBs in Ansett when I was based in Perth.

No question NDBs with circling are both harder and require more skill and more moral fibre in real life.

Cat3 s are harder in the sim, because you get asked about so many rules, and there are so many variations on go-arounds etc.

So, anyone who says Cat3 is harder, has more sim time than line experience, or has spent their life ILS to ILS, and simply has t flown a circling approach.
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Old 26th Apr 2021, 09:49
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Cat 3 is a piece of piss, I’d drop it down another level and asked the so called to fly a visual circuit. Because if you think low viz is hard I bet you can’t fly a circuit! 😂
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Old 26th Apr 2021, 09:58
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Circling? Isn't it when you fly an approach to one runway, then circle to land at another? What part of that is hard??

Don't shoot me here, but we run circling approaches from time to time when the winds will not comply with the instrument runway... and I've never seen anyone have a problem with it.... not even "the bigger" airliners.

Edit: See the post above... was snuck in before mine was posted, now I'm not confused anymore

Last edited by jmmoric; 26th Apr 2021 at 13:43.
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Old 26th Apr 2021, 10:24
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jmmoric View Post
Circling? Isn't it when you fly an approach to one runway, then circle to land at another? What part of that is hard??

Don't shoot me here, but we run circling approaches from time to time when the winds will not comply with the instrument runway... and I've never seen anyone have a problem with it.... not even "the bigger" airliners.
I guess it depends where you are.
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Old 26th Apr 2021, 11:47
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Angle of Attack View Post
Cat 3 is a piece of piss, Iíd drop it down another level and asked the so called to fly a visual circuit. Because if you think low viz is hard I bet you canít fly a circuit! 😂
Haha spot on!
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Old 26th Apr 2021, 13:56
  #30 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by John Eacott View Post
Air India used to let us (Okanagan Helicopters) maintain IF currency using their B747 sim in Bombay: as a helicopter driver it was remarkably easy to fly the 747 IF and carry out a variety of approaches.

The multi engine SP fixed wing piston stuff was far more difficult, without a doubt, especially night, bad weather off a non-precision approach as mooted by TukwillaFlyboy .

Swinging the lamp, but it all pales in comparison to a night fog approach by helicopter to an aircraft carrier, EMCON silent (no radio or navaids) after a four hour ASW sortie (never above 200ft) with a visibility of less than 100ft. Character building
Climbing onto short finals is always good fun.
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Old 26th Apr 2021, 15:42
  #31 (permalink)  
swh

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Always found circling to be bi-polar, either really easy like a dme arrival to an abbreviated circuit to utter madness like a night NDB in rain.

My biggest issue with cat 3 is how to get from the runway to the gate, not the flying.
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Old 27th Apr 2021, 02:31
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which people believe that they are smarter and more capable than they really are.


Is this of any relevance to anyone alluded to here?


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Old 27th Apr 2021, 06:44
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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I once had a gig flying an EMB 110 Bandeirante single pilot night freight back of the clock.
Character building.
Nothing in 30 years of Airline flying in Boeings has come close.
One of the reasons you bust your gut getting into an Airline is that it is soooooooo......much easier.
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Old 27th Apr 2021, 08:33
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TukwillaFlyboy View Post
I once had a gig flying an EMB 110 Bandeirante single pilot night freight back of the clock.
Character building.
Nothing in 30 years of Airline flying in Boeings has come close.
One of the reasons you bust your gut getting into an Airline is that it is soooooooo......much easier.
Exactly! No point getting to the top of your game only to work harder!
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Old 27th Apr 2021, 09:23
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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That has held true for almost every type I have flown...the harder, the more dangerous the less pay*. I have done plenty of circling approaches in rain and snow in primitive aeroplanes and really enjoyed being young and stupid too, but time moves on. And on...

* well, except for fire bombing, but you get the idea.
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Old 28th Apr 2021, 08:26
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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WITWIW - Seems these knowall's turn up all over . Self propagandising inlated egos geared to that sort of nonsensical comparison. Cat 3 for real Night Circling for real both are fraught if your not top of your game or awake. Precision v Non Precision Approach. I think the accident statistics tell you which area and op is the most dangerous and likely to end up badly if misjudged in any aicraft type! Any serious operation would not consider doing them at all. They were only ever an out to get you back round into the right direction in bad winds after a NPA. The most difficult NPA of all the long gone aural NDB from the 1940's and 1950;s try keeping on track and on descent using morse for being left or right and doing the numbers in your head. Like most of us I managed to get away with a lot of night circiling approaches in rain and high winds, dodgy monochrome radars and dodgy engines to boot, bravado of the young. Got into something with two pilots and turbines - never flew one again except in the sim - way it should be!
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Old 28th Apr 2021, 09:51
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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They were only ever an out to get you back round into the right direction in bad winds after a NPA.
Not true. Many of the NPAs to country airfields approached the runway at an angle, so they could be used for either runway. Most times it was the only approach the field had. Not every approach is a runway aligned approach.
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Old 28th Apr 2021, 12:09
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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the long gone aural NDB from the 1940's and 1950;s try keeping on track and on descent using morse for being left or right
Never heard of those.

Are you referring to a VAR?
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Old 28th Apr 2021, 12:51
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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KitchenBench - this type of approach preceded the VAR's. You went from beacon to beacon and followed a beam track with a variety of procedural turns. The so called beams had a morse code A and N and single tone when you were on the beam. Off to one side you got morse A off to the other you got morse N. Passage to different points was the various AM marker beacons you can see. There was no cockpit indicator like the VAR that came later.

This is the SFO approach that resulted in the BCPA DC-6 accident there long time ago. The Radio Beam navigation system was very common in the lat 1930;s and 1940's there were several transmitters on the main Brisbane to Sydney and Sydney to Melbourne Routes. The VAR system added the blue/yellow segmented display ala the old ILS gauges. From memory Tamworth still had the last VAR in the world up until the 1970s.

Checkboard - point noted however whilst I generalised the notion of any circling approach mostly being used at the completion of the final approach segment because of the result of winds (or cloud or vis) the point is this that you are at MDA and within the circling area and able to manouevre the aircraft to the base or downwind leg keeping the runway visually in sight and hence effect a normal landing, if I am only making a heading change and can pick up the final approach path within the arc of the runway ends then you are not conducting a circling approach. The fact that the MDA may be normal circuit height is not the issue it is the obstacles around the place and your ability to keep clear of them and the circling area is the only place that gives you a guaranteed 300 ft obstacle clearance. That is why your circling - you cannot land from straight in!

Anyway bugalugs with his Cat3 arrival should sit down and see how he'd go doing it a 747 - not! AS anybody who has done a few would know there are heaps of places where one side or the other is off limits for any circling at all, so it s a real squeeze before the weather and darkness makes it an even bigger squeeze.

Last edited by BendyFlyer; 28th Apr 2021 at 13:04.
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Old 28th Apr 2021, 22:16
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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My last VAR approach, according to my logbook was in May 1974 at Mangalore in Victoria. I think Hobart was the last one to be withdrawn in the mid-seventies .Even though it sounds primitive it was not that bad and you popped out more or less where you should have been, followed by a circle to land. Circling any jet is not difficult if you are current. Cat D in Japan, the circling limit was only 2.5 miles and yet a 747 goes around corners just as easily as a 737. Today people tend to build all sort of arcs and FA fixes, the ND looking like abstract artwork and fly the circling all on autopilot. Always looks very busy to me with all the mode changes, but it works well enough. You can still fly it manually like a big Cessna. Just turn off the the A/T and F/D and fly body angles and power settings. I understand that in the latest jets the A/T has to stay engaged but you can still fly the thing like any aeroplane. Night time in bad weather, circling can be dangerous and requires both pilots to be on top of their game. Anybody can do a CAT3 ILS if it is set up correctly.
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