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Qantas...Post COVID

Old 24th May 2021, 00:56
  #281 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately, what would VR do for the company? Cost them more than stand down and leave them short of pilots when the borders open.
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Old 24th May 2021, 00:59
  #282 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
No, the company can choose not to keep you stood down.
Like they have done for every other problem prior to CV.
My response was with respect to compulsory redundancy.
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Old 24th May 2021, 01:17
  #283 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by theheadmaster View Post
My response was with respect to compulsory redundancy.
Apologies - I misunderstood.
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Old 24th May 2021, 07:46
  #284 (permalink)  
 
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I am not talkimg CR, it may cost the Company more to offer some VR to the pilots looking at a 3 year Stand Down, my point is that it is bordering on inhumane to keep these guys ‘attached’ if they dont want to be just to force them back after a 3 year stand down. If the Company offered VR and people take it then great, if no one takes ot then they are happy to remain. Doing the right thing can cost some money sometimes.
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Old 24th May 2021, 08:53
  #285 (permalink)  
 
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Whats the difference between what QF have done and what often happens in the US with furloughs?
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Old 24th May 2021, 11:00
  #286 (permalink)  
Keg

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Stand down is probably a bit better than furlough because at least people are accruing AL and LSL along the way. Not sure if furlough has that benefit.

That said, I don’t reckon stand down was ever intended for this sort of ongoing situation, or a situation where parts of the company have work and other parts of the company have zero.

I suspect stand downs on the A380 is going to be a sad fact of life whilst other LH fleets still have rolling stand downs (due to international border closures). My personal opinion is that once borders are open and other LH fleets are back flying then the lack of A380 flying looks more like a commercial decision and stand down becomes very hard to justify. I suspect QF know this and are trying to work out how they solve that problem in about 12 months time.
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Old 24th May 2021, 12:29
  #287 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
I suspect stand downs on the A380 is going to be a sad fact of life
Another sad fact is that, statistically at least, a few stood down crew will develop a career limiting medical issue with zero access to sick leave. I think the company is banking on this and I think that is unconscionable.
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Old 24th May 2021, 21:58
  #288 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Keg View Post
Stand down is probably a bit better than furlough because at least people are accruing AL and LSL along the way. Not sure if furlough has that benefit.

That said, I don’t reckon stand down was ever intended for this sort of ongoing situation, or a situation where parts of the company have work and other parts of the company have zero.

I suspect stand downs on the A380 is going to be a sad fact of life whilst other LH fleets still have rolling stand downs (due to international border closures). My personal opinion is that once borders are open and other LH fleets are back flying then the lack of A380 flying looks more like a commercial decision and stand down becomes very hard to justify. I suspect QF know this and are trying to work out how they solve that problem in about 12 months time.
The worrying part of this is there is no desire to test the legality of this. The AIPA don’t seem to want to ask the hard questions, and if they won’t fight for the pilot group, who will?

How can the company use rotating stand ups? There either is useful work or there isn’t. If there isn’t ENOUGH useful work - you have too many staff and should follow the EBA process to resolve that. Too expensive? Might need them shortly? Then pay a minimum retainer - as per the EBA.

We should be pushing harder to have everyone stood up. Don’t tell me they can’t do it - govt assistance package plus domestic capacity means they have the resources.
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Old 24th May 2021, 22:44
  #289 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
The worrying part of this is there is no desire to test the legality of this. The AIPA don’t seem to want to ask the hard questions, and if they won’t fight for the pilot group, who will?

How can the company use rotating stand ups? There either is useful work or there isn’t. If there isn’t ENOUGH useful work - you have too many staff and should follow the EBA process to resolve that. Too expensive? Might need them shortly? Then pay a minimum retainer - as per the EBA.

We should be pushing harder to have everyone stood up. Don’t tell me they can’t do it - govt assistance package plus domestic capacity means they have the resources.
So it’s viable to run A380’s domestically just so that every pilot can fly a few times a month?

I’m not sure your investors would agree with that when it’s losing them more money.
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Old 25th May 2021, 00:30
  #290 (permalink)  
 
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A couple of questions re A380 pilots.

These are genuine questions, I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I do feel for all of the guys/girls in this predicament.

How many of the A380 pilots will be approaching 65 within the next 12-24 months?

What happens then? Forced retirement?

Where do they stand then for bidding to the SH? (Pending any vacancies of course)

Ie: can you bid while “stood down”

Of the <65 group, are there any positions for them to bid to?

If you are late in your ‘50’s and a F/O, is there enough time for you to find a left seat before you retire?

What of the S/O’s? They must be looking at a long stay on the sidelines?

How long can they be on LWOP for before?

What happens at the end of the LWOP?

Now, if they retire the aircraft, then all these problems become the company’s problem through the RIN process, so it would appear that will be an option QF won’t want to take.

All the best to everyone in this predicament, a terrible situation. Take care of yourselves and your families, and we are all hoping for smooth skies in the not to distant future.
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Old 25th May 2021, 00:33
  #291 (permalink)  
 
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The worrying part of this is there is no desire to test the legality of this. The AIPA don’t seem to want to ask the hard questions, and if they won’t fight for the pilot group, who will?
Maybe they have, albeit not through the courts. There are plenty of CoM members who are stood-down 380 Pilots. I'd be very surprised if they are not exploring every possible avenue you see all Longhaul Pilots stood-up, including themselves.
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Old 25th May 2021, 00:58
  #292 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lookleft View Post
Whats the difference between what QF have done and what often happens in the US with furloughs?
This merry go-round we escaped lots of furloughs in the states by extended leaves offered and early retirements. REGARDLESS, in all instances seniority was not infringed.

The policy of forced stand downs is a genie you won’t get back in the bottle. It’ll prob be used for the next crisis and the one after that.
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Old 25th May 2021, 01:03
  #293 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
The worrying part of this is there is no desire to test the legality of this. The AIPA don’t seem to want to ask the hard questions, and if they won’t fight for the pilot group, who will?
Have you spoken to AIPA about the legal advice they’ve obtained? Last year and again this year that advice is unchanged. You’re suggesting AIPA launch a costly court case contrary to legal advice to ‘test’ the stand down?

Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
How can the company use rotating stand ups? There either is useful work or there isn’t. If there isn’t ENOUGH useful work - you have too many staff and should follow the EBA process to resolve that.
You’re suggesting that from April last year we should have RIN’d all the A380 and 747 pilots to the A330 and 787, most of the Captains on those latter fleets to F/O and probably all of the F/Os back to S/O? Who does that help? The company? The pilots? None of the above?

Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
We should be pushing harder to have everyone stood up.
On what grounds? The international borders are closed. There is no useful work for at least half of the A330 and 787 fleets and none at all for the A380. There will be a time when we will be able to push harder and it will be appropriate to do so. Unfortunately that time is still months away.
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Old 25th May 2021, 01:28
  #294 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post

How many of the A380 pilots will be approaching 65 within the next 12-24 months?
0. Though there are some LH pilots on other fleets approaching (and a couple beyond) 65.

Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
What happens then? Forced retirement?
If there is no SH vacancy to bid for, yes. (Under current rules).

Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
Where do they stand then for bidding to the SH? (Pending any vacancies of course)
If there is a vacancy they can bid for it. Whether a vacancy has to be created for them I thought was ruled on a bunch of years ago with the result being the company does not have to create a slot for them. Happy to be corrected on that point.

Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
Ie: can you bid while “stood down”
Most definitely. You’re stood down in category. It doesn’t stop you bidding. A better question would be can you bid whilst on LWOP. I’m not sure that latter question has been tested.

Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
Of the <65 group, are there any positions for them to bid to?
Not currently. There may be toward the end of this year depending on a few different things.

Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
If you are late in your ‘50’s and a F/O, is there enough time for you to find a left seat before you retire?
This would depend on seniority. There are a lot of ‘ifs’ to do with future promotion including how many A380s come back and what QF chooses to do with A380 crew in the interim. Most of the F/Os you mention are now a couple of hundred numbers more senior to what they were 12 months ago and some of them are likely to now have their commands a couple of years before they would have otherwise expected. In the past I would have listed out the exact fleet numbers to provide more context but can’t do that anymore. ‘Confidential company information’.

Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
What of the S/O’s? They must be looking at a long stay on the sidelines?
Again, this will depend on seniority and some of the aforementioned ‘ifs’. IF 12 A380s come back and IF we are looking at half a dozen (or more) A350s arriving in late 2023 then it’s likely that 2022-2023 will see the biggest training program every run by Qantas. Even if only 6 A380s come back, with the A350 coming down range we are still looking at a pretty significant training load.

Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
How long can they be on LWOP for before?
As long as they like.

Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
What happens at the end of the LWOP?
They come back to their previous category and are either stood up (if there is work) or remain stood down. They start to accrue years of service, AL, LSL again, etc.

Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
Now, if they retire the aircraft, then all these problems become the company’s problem through the RIN process, so it would appear that will be an option QF won’t want to take.
If they retire the A380s it’ll likely be because they’ve chosen to replace the capacity with A350s. There will be airframes for the remaining A380 crew to RIN to.

Originally Posted by Roj approved View Post
All the best to everyone in this predicament, a terrible situation. Take care of yourselves and your families, and we are all hoping for smooth skies in the not to distant future.
Yes. A terrible predicament that is impacting crew in very different ways depending on the seat you happened to be in when the music stopped. Hopefully with vaccinations ramping up in the lead up to Christmas, once the election is done and dusted we will see international borders re-opening.
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Old 25th May 2021, 01:30
  #295 (permalink)  
 
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Seniority rules.....wait...not at Qantas.
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Old 25th May 2021, 01:32
  #296 (permalink)  
 
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On what grounds? The international borders are closed. There is no useful work for at least half of the A330 and 787 fleets and none at all for the A380. There will be a time when we will be able to push harder and it will be appropriate to do so. Unfortunately that time is still months away.[/QUOTE]

That’s the unfortunate reality at the moment like it or not.

It’s interesting reading this,

Mr Joyce said that capability included keeping on enough A380 pilots to operate at least six A380s at relatively short notice.”

I don’t think that is the intent of the stand down clause?
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Old 25th May 2021, 01:55
  #297 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by halfmoon View Post
Seniority rules.....wait...not at Qantas.
can you give an example? Not happy with sharing standup? Not happy with rostering? Not happy you’re senior to someone on another fleet but not flying? Some context please....as far as I’ve seen, seniority is ruling,
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Old 25th May 2021, 02:01
  #298 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by DUXNUTZ View Post
The policy of forced stand downs is a genie you won’t get back in the bottle. It’ll prob be used for the next crisis and the one after that.
Yes, I wonder the same thing. One wonders how a QF32 type event and subsequent fleet grounding may be treated in the future compared to how it was in the past.
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Old 25th May 2021, 05:28
  #299 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by halfmoon View Post
Seniority rules.....wait...not at Qantas.
Was it ever an absolute?

If strict seniority was to be have been applied at the start of COVID then immediately the top roughly 500 pilots would’ve been retrained as mostly 737 pilots with a few 330 and 787 drivers as well, and the rest made redundant. That would’ve satisfied crewing numbers for the whole of last year, and then as more crew start to to be needed this year they are re-employed from #500 onwards.

If no seniority at all was applied then all 380 and 747 pilots from every rank would’ve been made redundant a few months into Covid. Maybe apply for their jobs back in 3 years time but no earlier.

The application of seniority to whatever degree is going to make some happy and some unhappy.
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Old 25th May 2021, 06:03
  #300 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Was it ever an absolute?

If strict seniority was to be have been applied at the start of COVID then immediately the top roughly 500 pilots would’ve been retrained as mostly 737 pilots with a few 330 and 787 drivers as well, and the rest made redundant. That would’ve satisfied crewing numbers for the whole of last year, and then as more crew start to to be needed this year they are re-employed from #500 onwards.

If no seniority at all was applied then all 380 and 747 pilots from every rank would’ve been made redundant a few months into Covid. Maybe apply for their jobs back in 3 years time but no earlier.

The application of seniority to whatever degree is going to make some happy and some unhappy.
and everyone who is currently stood down would have a couple hundred grand redundancy payout in their pocket while they wait to be rehired.
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