Jetstar and Ballina again

[das Uber Soldat]

Originally Posted by KABOY

Unfortunately you need to realise that QF Link and their 50 seat aeroplanes have been operating into these environments for decades.


There is no difference between QF Link and JQ, why is this a headline? A320's are regional commuters in this decade and LCC's like JQ amplify this.

Er, Che? Are you saying flying a 19 tonne turbo prop is no different to a 77 tonne jet?

You may as well argue that Cessnas have been flying into Camden for decades, so let's put the bus into there too.

I flew high performance turbo props into Ballina for years, before moving to the bus where I've continued to do it for years. It is not the same. That a q300, which crosses the fence as slow as 87 kts is able to safely operate in that environment has little relevance to what we do in the jet.
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[Derfred]

Originally Posted by Roller Merlin

Portable and cheap ADSB traffic systems for VFR were approved in July 2020, so the game has changed. A Sky Echo ADSB in/out VFR box is the size of a fag packet, mounts on the window of any lighty and costs $900 - every user and other IFR can see each other out to 40miles. These incidents would virtually stop overnight if CASA were to mandate ADSB in CTAFs where RPT operate.

Sadly no RPT jets have ADSB-IN. They only have ADSB-OUT along with their transponder mode C.

This solution may provide the Jabiru the location of the Jet, but it won’t provide the Jet the location of the Jabiru, and it won’t provide the jet with TCAS avoidance or alerting. That still requires the Jabiru to have a transponder mode C.

Why? Well I guess Australia is unique in having RPT jets mix with Jabirus in non-towered airports. If that happened elsewhere in the world then Airbus and Boeing would be fitting different equipment.

I may have some of this wrong, but until lighties have mode C when they are mixing with jets in busy uncontrolled airports, I think we have a disaster waiting to happen.

CA/GRS doesn’t cut it.

[Stickshift3000]

Originally Posted by Derfred

Sadly no RPT jets have ADSB-IN. They only have ADSB-OUT along with their transponder mode C.

I didn’t know that; in this day and age (given low cost & availability) that’s quite incredible.

[John Citizen]

in this day and age (given low cost & availability

Yes, it's beyond a joke. My $50 Australia Post Office special mobile can see light aircraft on a flight radar app (free software) yet a $50 million+ aircraft cannot.

Even basic cheap software such as Oz Runways can show other traffic (and their flight plan) which airliners cannot.

Do we need another Boeing and Cessna collision (135 dead) before anything changes.

After this collision, the following changes were implemented:
- terminal radar service/positive radar control for all aircraft
- mode C was required for all aircraft in that airspace

Do we need such a collision in Australia for changes to happen?

[neville_nobody]

Yes, it's beyond a joke. My $50 Australia Post Office special mobile can see light aircraft on a flight radar app (free software) yet a $50 million+ aircraft cannot.

Even basic cheap software such as Oz Runways can show other traffic (and their flight plan) which airliners cannot.

Problem always is regulation. CASA will want to regulate it and ensure that it is 'safe'. This then adds cost to the system which then comes out of some airline executive's bonus.

That fundamental problem in aviation is why is there is virtually no innovation at the high end. 737s are a 1970s aircraft and the A320 is 1980s. That's the level of technology we are dealing with.

Even if there was a major mid air collision in Ballina nothing will change because the bureaucracy will make it all to hard and too expensive.

The safest option is to drop a few more radar towers in around the place, then if required put in a Control Tower but noone will want to pay for that

[Chronic Snoozer]

Originally Posted by neville_nobody

Problem always is regulation. CASA will want to regulate it and ensure that it is 'safe'. This then adds cost to the system which then comes out of some airline executive's bonus.

It (ADS-B) is a fantastic tool for SA. What’s to regulate?

Preaching to the choir, but I’m tired of practical solutions being overlooked in the name of ‘safety cases’ which involve investigation to the nth degree of the remotest probabilities and consequences. Common sense solutions don’t need it, just get on with it. I’m all for being thorough but risk management (aversion) is slowly euthanising our spirit of adventure and willingness to try something new. Whether it is playgrounds, sleeping under aircraft wings or implementing the latest technology, bureaucrats and regulators just clog the machinery of progress at times, with one hand always on the handbrake. If there was a Bureaucratic Red Tape and BS World Championship, Australia gets on the podium every time.

[Icarus2001]

What’s to regulate?

Regulation would be which aircraft MUST have it fitted, which models are acceptable, which airspace is unavailable without it on board...

[John Citizen]

737s are a 1970s aircraft and the A320 is 1980s

Yes they are old, but I think most now have some type of tablet (IPad) as part of their EFB and some even have Wi-Fi onboard. I expect they would have the ability to see ADSB -IN through some type of app.

If pilots can use onboard Wi-Fi to view the latest ground weather radar return on their Jeppesen charts, you think they would be able to do the same with ADSB.

However I still think a tower is still the best option.

[triadic]

I flew high performance turbo props into Ballina for years, before moving to the bus where I've continued to do it for years. It is not the same. That a q300, which crosses the fence as slow as 87 kts is able to safely operate in that environment has little relevance to what we do in the jet.
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It would be interesting to know what your SOPs say on operations into non-controlled aerodromes (in Class G) and how they differed from the turbo prop op and in what regard ??
It is not the performance that is the issue, it is how the aircraft is managed.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Originally Posted by Icarus2001

Regulation would be which aircraft MUST have it fitted, which models are acceptable, which airspace is unavailable without it on board...

Well that will only take ten years to figure out......

See and avoid has been proven to be unreliable time and time again if you don’t know an aircraft is there in the first place. ADSB is an ideal supplement to that principle. Having operated in high intensity flying environments with and without it, in my opinion it is a stone-cold no brainer.

[Icarus2001]

I agree with you 100%. I was just looking at it from the regulation view.

Also your comments generally about risk aversion are spot on. Our society now seems so risk averse that many activities are just impossible.

[das Uber Soldat]

Originally Posted by triadic

It would be interesting to know what your SOPs say on operations into non-controlled aerodromes (in Class G) and how they differed from the turbo prop op and in what regard ??

SOP's don't prescribe every scenario. The differences in my operation vs turboprops is in allowed spacing entering the CTAF area. 10/10/1. Jets need more room. They don't slow down anything like what a TP can, they aren't capable of flying speeds as compatible with GA traffic as a TP can, and if things go sideways, they have a whole lot more inertia, and a whole lot more thrust delay than a TP. And people do stupid things in Ballina so regularly you can set your watch to it.

It is not the performance that is the issue, it is how the aircraft is managed.

Is that so? And you're basing this on your extensive experience flying both TP's and 180 seat jets into busy CTAF's I presume?

[triadic]

SOP's don't prescribe every scenario. The differences in my operation vs turboprops is in allowed spacing entering the CTAF area. 10/10/1. Jets need more room. They don't slow down anything like what a TP can, they aren't capable of flying speeds as compatible with GA traffic as a TP can, and if things go sideways, they have a whole lot more inertia, and a whole lot more thrust delay than a TP. And people do stupid things in Ballina so regularly you can set your watch to it.

What you say is a given. By asking for your to comment on your SOPs, I was interested to know such things as how you managed your radios when going into a Class G airfield, when you started monitoring the CTAF and when you made your first calls etc. Those procedures and actions are what I call "management" and if that is not undertaken according to the circumstances and environment at the time then, as you would know, things might start to get a bit risky. I see the issues at Ballina not restricted to airspace, (but a tower would be nice) but how everyone participates.

And since you asked, I have over 22,000 hrs with time in GA, turbo-props and jets including various training roles operating into many class G aerodromes.

[goodonyamate]

Originally Posted by das Uber Soldat

SOP's don't prescribe every scenario. The differences in my operation vs turboprops is in allowed spacing entering the CTAF area. 10/10/1. Jets need more room. They don't slow down anything like what a TP can, they aren't capable of flying speeds as compatible with GA traffic as a TP can, and if things go sideways, they have a whole lot more inertia, and a whole lot more thrust delay than a TP. And people do stupid things in Ballina so regularly you can set your watch to it.



Is that so? And you're basing this on your extensive experience flying both TP's and 180 seat jets into busy CTAF's I presume?

Yes.


10/10/1 for allowed spacing? Jesus. For figuring out what poses a possible conflict, sure.

im not in anyway saying this is the case with JQ, but I agree, management has a lot to do with it. Some dudes and dudettes in jets (and turboprops...5m final anyone? RIP grumpypilot) think they are the Charlie big potato’s in town and punch on in expecting everyone to move out of their way like Moses parting the Red Sea. IMO much better just to be the one who works around the GA aircraft...if it makes you late or you hold somewhere, whatever. Better than being the subject of a prune thread.

also, ‘tracking via the RNV X’ or ‘overhead NA410’ means nothing to ol’ matey in his jabiru. People please, just speak level 6 English.

happy days. At least we’re pontificating about this now instead of how many more redundacies there are going to be.

[Icarus2001]

Jets need more room. They don't slow down anything like what a TP can, they aren't capable of flying speeds as compatible with GA traffic as a TP can, and if things go sideways, they have a whole lot more inertia, and a whole lot more thrust delay than a TP.

With respect das Uber Soldat, I think speed is a red herring. I am happy to fly normal jet profile speeds for my type, mixed with random light aircraft traffic so long as I know about them. I can enter the circuit or not based on their position. I find that almost without exception light aircraft pilots "give way" to our arrival even when they could assert their "right of way", helicopters also.

Also bear in mind that the maximum circuit speed is 200 knots. I fly with a few guys who have to be reminded about that.

https://vfrg.casa.gov.au/operations/...it-procedures/

[neville_nobody]

It (ADS-B) is a fantastic tool for SA. What’s to regulate?

Just investigate what is required to certify an Ipad alone for maps and manuals in an airliner and you will get some idea of what you are up against.

If pilots can use onboard Wi-Fi to view the latest ground weather radar return on their Jeppesen charts, you think they would be able to do the same with ADSB.

Viewing it and actually using it in anger as the basis of a decision are two very different concepts.

[a_pilot]

Viewing it and actually using it in anger as the basis of a decision are two very different concepts

Isn't some information (for additional guidance/awareness), sometimes, from some aircraft only, available to some other pilots only, better than absolutely no such information at all? (a bit like TCAS or strobe lights, some have it, some don't, yet we still use it)

It might just help prevent a collision one day.

[neville_nobody]

Isn't some information (for additional guidance/awareness), sometimes, from some aircraft only, available to some other pilots only, better than absolutely no such information at all?

The problem arises when a ghost ship appears on the IPAD and then the crew take action and do something like cause a RA with an inbound aircraft or fly into controlled airspace without a clearance to avoid what they think is another aircraft.

[morno]

Originally Posted by Derfred

Sadly no RPT jets have ADSB-IN. They only have ADSB-OUT along with their transponder mode C.

Not true. In AUSTRALIA, RPT jets don’t have ADSB in. I know It’s an option that is available on Airbus aircraft. Just that the tight ass airlines in Australia don’t option it.

[Roo]

Originally Posted by Derfred

Sadly no RPT jets have ADSB-IN. They only have ADSB-OUT along with their transponder mode C.

Actually some of the newer RPT jets in Australia do have ADSB-IN. Amongst other things we use to tag other AC & pull their GS for separation on final. But like you say, Sad it is not widespread yet.