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Jetstar and Ballina again

Old 14th Mar 2021, 09:42
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chris2303 View Post
"Ballina" search on the ATSB website.............

https://www.atsb.gov.au/search?query=Ballina
Chris 2303 Thank you.

Yes I tried that but given all what is said about Ballina, I didn’t expect to have to go back to 2017 or 2016.

Maybe the incidents didn’t make it to ATSB??

Cheers,

Gf

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Old 14th Mar 2021, 21:33
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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So PPRUNErs.

re my preceding posts apart from the A320 / Jabiru incident, where is the evidence to prove Ballina is a problem?

Gf
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Old 14th Mar 2021, 22:06
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gentle_flyer View Post
So PPRUNErs.

re my preceding posts apart from the A320 / Jabiru incident, where is the evidence to prove Ballina is a problem?

Gf
I thought angels were only employed by Qantas, not CASA....
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Old 14th Mar 2021, 23:32
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sparrows. View Post
I thought angels were only employed by Qantas, not CASA....
Sorry mate! Your intellect, humour, sarcasm and/or cynicism lost on this moron!

As my favourite politician would say “PLEASE EXPLAIN”...

Gf
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 01:07
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gentle_flyer View Post
So PPRUNErs.

re my preceding posts apart from the A320 / Jabiru incident, where is the evidence to prove Ballina is a problem?

Gf
28 November 2020 - Separation event between an A320 & J230
21 September 2017 REPCON submitted regarding frequency congestion on Ballina/Lismore/Casino CTAF
19 September 2017 Traffic Conflict C208 & R22 at Ballina
14 January 2016 Traffic Conflict BE76 & A320 at Ballina
22 April 2016 Near collision R22 & Lancair at Ballina
22 April 2016 Near collision R22 & C182 at Ballina (different R22, same day)
07 October 2013 Runway Incursion S227 & B47 at Ballina
06 October 2010 Near collision BE76 & C182 at Ballina.

7 near misses in a decade at 1 untowered airport - including a couple with HCRPT - says there could be a problem. To me at least. Others may think differently.
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 04:37
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KRviator View Post
28 November 2020 - Separation event between an A320 & J230
21 September 2017 REPCON submitted regarding frequency congestion on Ballina/Lismore/Casino CTAF
19 September 2017 Traffic Conflict C208 & R22 at Ballina
14 January 2016 Traffic Conflict BE76 & A320 at Ballina
22 April 2016 Near collision R22 & Lancair at Ballina
22 April 2016 Near collision R22 & C182 at Ballina (different R22, same day)
07 October 2013 Runway Incursion S227 & B47 at Ballina
06 October 2010 Near collision BE76 & C182 at Ballina.
The REPCON states
The reporter expressed a safety concern related to how busy the 124.2 broadcast zone has become.

This zone covers the Ballina Certified Air/Ground Radio Service (CA/GRS), Lismore Airport, Casino Airport and Evans Head Aerodrome. The airspace is very busy servicing all categories of airspace use from high capacity operations, general aviation, training flights, multiple parachuting operations, ultralight operations and hang gliding operations. The frequency congestion is leading to situations where pilots are losing situational awareness leading to unsafe situations where aircraft are joining circuits against the flow of traffic, over transmissions, unsure of other aircraft tracking.

This broadcast zone needs to separated before a serious incident occurs.
A single REPCON in 10 years could suggest there isn't much of an issue, or the risks are widely known and accepted, or blind faith (BST), or luck.

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Old 15th Mar 2021, 06:16
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Fascinated to understand why you pick just that one out of the list posted by KR, as if it’s the only one with safety implications, missy.
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 08:08
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon View Post
Fascinated to understand why you pick just that one out of the list posted by KR, as if it’s the only one with safety implications, missy.
Not at all, my point (possible badly constructed) was if BNA was so bad, so dangerous, so [insert your own adjective] then you'd expect that there would be more than just a single REPCON*. Near collisions, runway incursion, traffic conflict and a separation "event" all have safety implications.

REPCON is a voluntary and confidential reporting scheme. REPCON allows any person who has an aviation safety concern to report it to the ATSB confidentially.

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Old 15th Mar 2021, 09:34
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by missy View Post
Not at all, my point (possible badly constructed) was if BNA was so bad, so dangerous, so [insert your own adjective] then you'd expect that there would be more than just a single REPCON*. Near collisions, runway incursion, traffic conflict and a separation "event" all have safety implications.
KR and Lead Thank you, but what SHE said!

Like Missy I’m not doubting the importance of what was listed by you KR, it matches what I found when I searched the ATSB yesterday, just like what Chris 2303 suggested as well...

Seriously though, no incidents or REPCONS from Sep 2017 til now except the A320 / Jabiru which is a real doozy; and like most Prelims from ATSB these days its not what is said that is interesting, its what isn’t!

So I suspect not only do we have a problem with Ballina but almost everyone has just given up reporting. Not really a surprise, you can only hit your head against the ATSB / CASA brick wall so many times before one gives up.....

Oh dear just like Airservices!
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 09:47
  #70 (permalink)  
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It’s a 3 year turnaround. Any safety actions to be taken in the final report, well as seen with AirAsia, the issues since occurred multiple times over again and again in the ‘waiting period’.
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 09:51
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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What's the difference between a "Separation Event", a "Traffic Conflict" and a "Near collision"?
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 10:18
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sunnySA View Post
What's the difference between a "Separation Event", a "Traffic Conflict" and a "Near collision"?
OMG Sunny, stop asking Dorothy Dixers.....

‘However I thank the member for his/her question...

They are ATSB’s cunning plan / agreement with CASA / AsA to create confusion and obfuscation so that in reports to their political masters things only appear one third as bad!

it’s all spin, fake news and alternative facts...

and yes I still owe you one....
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 11:34
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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It's ironic that for a location with reported frequency congestion, almost all those incidents occurred because someone didn't use a radio.
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 21:29
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wheels_down View Post
It’s a 3 year turnaround. Any safety actions to be taken in the final report, well as seen with AirAsia, the issues since occurred multiple times over again and again in the ‘waiting period’.
So wheels down,

Do you think there is a problem at Ballina or is it all tickety-boo”

Gf

Do you want to PM me the Air Asia scenario, thanks,
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 22:00
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gentle_flyer View Post
So I suspect not only do we have a problem with Ballina but almost everyone has just given up reporting. Not really a surprise, you can only hit your head against the ATSB / CASA brick wall so many times before one gives up.....
Yep. I know of a REPCON submitted by a fellow train driver regarding document control training & procedure changes at their workplace. I know for a fact that there are serious problems with how that company manages that kind of thing, ie frequency of changes, people not being up to speed and/or working to two different versions, supervisors working to out-of-date rules etc, but the ATSB asked the company and not surprisingly got a response "Everything's mickey mouse. We don't agree with the report, nothing to see here, move along" even though they were provided specific examples of dates/times/locations. And, surprise surprise, the ATSB did just that. Accepted the company at their word and so nothing has changed, and if recent reports are anything to go by, things have actually got worse there...

I'd agree with you G_f that people see outcomes like that, and ask "Well, it didn't work the first time / or for Driver X, why would I bother and risk a target on my back?" And Ballina is the outcome. We've been lucky thus far, there hasn't been an A320 with a Jabiru hood ornament...But as was said in that kids movie, Monster's Inc, "Your luck will run out, eventually!".
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 23:11
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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KR,

I know of many similar experiences...additional to the fact that CONFIDENTIAL is an interesting word......

Especially when the reported organisation can quite easily work out who the reporter is/was due to the content (no matter how anonymised).

Fear of reporting and absence of reporting is as big a safety issue as the issues themselves!

A colleague of mine looked at “luck” in a slightly different way.

When something did not happen attributed to luck or good fortune he used to comment:

”P Rovidence was the controller that day” ...

Seems to describe the A320 / Jabiru incident well .... Given procedures and all safety nets apparently failed
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Old 15th Mar 2021, 23:18
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KRviator View Post
Yep. I know of a REPCON submitted by a fellow train driver regarding document control training & procedure changes at their workplace. I know for a fact that there are serious problems with how that company manages that kind of thing, ie frequency of changes, people not being up to speed and/or working to two different versions, supervisors working to out-of-date rules etc, but the ATSB asked the company and not surprisingly got a response "Everything's mickey mouse. We don't agree with the report, nothing to see here, move along" even though they were provided specific examples of dates/times/locations. And, surprise surprise, the ATSB did just that. Accepted the company at their word and so nothing has changed, and if recent reports are anything to go by, things have actually got worse there..."[/i].
Unfortunately this is the new norm in our self regulating world
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 02:18
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gentle_flyer View Post
A colleague of mine looked at “luck” in a slightly different way.
A colleague of mine would say "I'd rather work with a lucky controller than a good controller".
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 02:54
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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When something did not happen attributed to luck or good fortune he used to comment:

”P Rovidence was the controller that day” ...
Which was the whole premise of the book 'Fate is the Hunter'
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 05:08
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Airline and Airservices management should read the long list of names at the front of that book. If they don't care that it is the names of all the pilots the author knew then maybe they could read it as if it is a passenger manifest.
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