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Jetstar and Ballina again

Old 15th Feb 2023, 20:49
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
Sunny, I didn't say that, @Clearice did.
Apologies.
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Old 16th Feb 2023, 03:41
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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So now we finally beginning to see what a farce ATSB is and how this investigation Is a complete cluster duck

And we haven’t seen half of it…like many others I’d like to hear and see all that happened after Virgin initiated the go round.

Show us the full 60 frames / sec 2K and 1K videos of the BNA SFIS TAAATS Eurocat controller position and the voice/intercom VSCS of that same position to hear.

I am sick and tired of seeing manicured and filtered representations from ATSB who are obviously technically deficient with regard to TAAATS Eurocat.

If a controller’s actions to the head on near miss were to get the prop to do a 300 degree right turn through and just in front of the B737 going round they’d be removed on the spot.

If you can’t hit them once why not have a second go..

I used to laugh at previous posts on PPRUNE about coverups between AsA / ATSB / CASA … but after seeing the egregious report into the MNG midair and what is not said here, I’m not so sure.

Bloggs, completely agree re requirement for both IFRs to get mutual traffic….I agree with your statement that it was unlikely to happen with the preceding CAGR service.

I believe they use to nominate a runway with weather info like an unofficial ATIS….

I am also led to believe that all VFR flights are ‘encouraged” to submit a flights with IFR tracking points in the route for the TAAATS Eurocat Flight Data Records. What the …..

SFIS is a flawed concept and the training is obviously deficient.

What a con job to suppose an ADSB ground station would have prevented this….

Surveillance did not prevent SUNSHINE COAST, ALBURY and it certainly didn’t prevent MANGALORE!

Will all aircraft operating in and out of Ballina broadcast area be equipped with ADSB OUT when the AsA ADSB ground station in late March 2023? I don't thinks so….

I am sure Senator Sterle and his friends in the RRAT will fix it all…breathe in and… and….and…and…………. die

Last edited by Gentle_flyer; 16th Feb 2023 at 04:09.
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Old 16th Feb 2023, 04:24
  #323 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gentle_flyer
Surveillance did not prevent SUNSHINE COAST, ALBURY and it certainly didn’t prevent MANGALORE!
These ones?

Separation issue involving Airbus A320, VH-VQG, and Aero Commander 500, VH-UJS, near Sunshine Coast Airport, Queensland, on 4 November 2019
Sunshine Coast

Near collision between Piper PA-28, VH-XDI and ATR72, VH-FVR, Albury Airport, New South Wales, on 19 October 2019
Albury

Mid-air collision involving Piper PA-44-180 Seminole, VH-JQF and Beech D95A Travel Air, VH-AEM 8 km south of Mangalore Airport, Victoria on 19 February 2020
Mangalore

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Old 16th Feb 2023, 04:30
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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Missy, correct…
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Old 16th Feb 2023, 08:27
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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Stitched up?
He didn't clarify which runway Virgin was on, only presumed.
He didn't make an entering runway call.
He didn't broadcast his tracking intentions for departure with the rolling call.
He took off with a tailwind (because it was quicker) rather than taking off into wind, knowing Jetstar was positioning for RWY24.
He didn't make contact with Virgin
He flew overhead the field in front of Virgin going around ( which was obvious that had to).
He didn't make contact with Jetstar to seperate for departure.

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Old 16th Feb 2023, 09:55
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by shortshortz
He didn't make an entering runway call.
Yes he did.

Originally Posted by shortshortz
​​​​​​​He didn't broadcast his tracking intentions for departure with the rolling call.
No requirement.

Originally Posted by shortshortz
​​​​​​​He took off with a tailwind (because it was quicker) rather than taking off into wind, knowing Jetstar was positioning for RWY24.
Jetstar was miles away and not even mentioned in the report apart from the initial part.

Originally Posted by shortshortz
​​​​​​​He flew overhead the field in front of Virgin going around ( which was obvious that had to).
I addressed that above.

Originally Posted by shortshortz
​​​​​​​He didn't make contact with Jetstar to seperate for departure.
Nor did Jetstar contact him.

More fundamental errors/omissions were made by the other players; I'm not saying the Van pilot was a saint (he only had 1000 hours), but the others have equal, if not more, responsibility for the event.









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Old 16th Feb 2023, 11:17
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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So Captain Bloggs, do you have access to TAAATS data and VSCS recordings?
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Old 16th Feb 2023, 11:34
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gentle Flyer
do you have access to TAAATS data and VSCS recordings?
No I don't. Pity Webtrak Ballina isn't up and running! ​​​​​​​
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Old 16th Feb 2023, 11:36
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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I've read the report again I think the poor Van driver has been stitched up. Fair enough their departure from the overhead wasn't desirable but I strongly suspect that was due to hurried decision-making after being stunned by what had just happened. The Van driver could have asked for the 737's runway but the other two players were more at fault. The 737 was never given traffic on the Van by the SFIS. The ATSB is being unjustly harsh with criticism of the Van driver's lookout on line-up; it is very difficult to see an aeroplane at 5 miles (white jet with clouds behind?), especially when it's cocked-off in a crosswind with the landing lights pointing away from you. And he did not have an "incorrect" model. That implies he had the information but incorrectly interpreted it; he didn't have the information, full -stop.
Hear! Hear!

I’m reminded of this report in which ATSB seemed not to comprehend any potential confusion and consequential risk caused by the inbound RPT aircraft having made a ‘joining downwind’ broadcast while still over 5nms from the aerodrome. Apparently the inbound aggie should have assumed that the inbound RPT aircraft wasn’t actually joining downwind at the point the broadcast was made.

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Old 16th Feb 2023, 12:02
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
No I don't. Pity Webtrak Ballina isn't up and running!
So where did you get info on the traffic disposition to justify comments after the 737 went around…

I am not saying you are right or wrong, I just don’t see the info in the (my eyes, farcical) investigation report.
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Old 16th Feb 2023, 12:36
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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Gentle Flyer, sorry, which comment are you referring-to?

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Old 16th Feb 2023, 12:46
  #332 (permalink)  
 
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Captain Bloggs, your comments tp shortshortz re Jetstar.




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Old 16th Feb 2023, 13:15
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gentle Flyer
where did you get info on the traffic disposition to justify comments after the 737 went around…
The report page 2: the Van taxied at 41, in response, the ATC gave traffic including that the A320 was 20nm southwest and "crossing the CL" at about 45. The Van was therefore well clear and IMO using 06 was more logical, because he wouldn't conflict with the Jetstar by taking off on 24; is what also the way he wanted to go.
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Old 16th Feb 2023, 16:13
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
Yes he did.


No requirement.


Jetstar was miles away and not even mentioned in the report apart from the initial part.


I addressed that above.


Nor did Jetstar contact him.

More fundamental errors/omissions were made by the other players; I'm not saying the Van pilot was a saint (he only had 1000 hours), but the others have equal, if not more, responsibility for the event.
Where did the report mention he made an entering runway call?

Why did Jetstar need to contact him, if in your words, they were miles away? When Jetstar would've known Virgin and the Caravan HAD to have made contact together at some point prior to Jetstar.

Virgin unfortunately, for whatever reason, missed the Taxi call and weren't confirmed to have received the traffic information. The rest lies on the Caravan pilot to have done anything other than he did; enter runway call, clarify Virgin's anticipated runway direction and not presumed, made contact with any arriving aircraft to clarify his departure intentions. Instead of taking off at an intersection, with a tailwind, towards traffic as quick as he could to avoid radio calls and a 10 minute wait.
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Old 16th Feb 2023, 19:44
  #335 (permalink)  
 
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Virgin unfortunately, for whatever reason, missed the Taxi call and weren't confirmed to have received the traffic information. The rest lies on the Caravan pilot ...
So it's effectively 'my bad' for Virgin and SFIS - unfortunately for whatever reason - but the Caravan pilot isn't allowed to use the same mewling excuse?
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Old 16th Feb 2023, 20:18
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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Separate the problems:

A: Unannounced arrival or departure.

B: Failure to successfully negotiate separation between communicating aircraft.


Problem A:

In my limited experience with sharing untowered CTAF airspace with RPT, the procedure seemed to be that the PNF monitors the CTAF and then established two way comms with me.

.Isn't it possible to mandate a listening watch and enough broadcast calls to preclude an unannounced arrival or departure?

Problem B


I have yet to meet an RPT where we couldn't work out guaranteed separation in about a ten second conversation.

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Old 16th Feb 2023, 21:11
  #337 (permalink)  
 
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All fine, until it gets really busy. The bandaide applied to Ballina is SFIS. But in this case SFIS appears to have contributed to rather than mitigated the risks.
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Old 16th Feb 2023, 23:36
  #338 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever you reckon, Shortz.

Originally Posted by Shortz
Where did the report mention he made an entering runway call?
Search "entering and rolling runway 06".
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Old 16th Feb 2023, 23:58
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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Yes. The Caravan was not the only piece of swiss cheese.
At 1343:28, the pilot of the Caravan made a broadcast on the CTAF stating that the aircraft was entering and rolling runway 06. The SFIS controller heard the Caravan pilot’s ‘entering and rolling’ broadcast and was aware of the developing conflict between the Caravan and the B737. However, the SFIS controller elected not to issue a safety alert (see section titled Safety alert).

The ‘entering and rolling’ broadcast was the first transmission the flight crew of the B737 recalled hearing from the Caravan pilot and when they first became aware of the Caravan. At 1343:36, the B737’s FO made a broadcast on the CTAF stating that the B737 was on a 5 NM final approach for runway 24. Neither the Caravan pilot nor the SFIS controller responded to this broadcast.
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Old 17th Feb 2023, 00:12
  #340 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish
Problem A:

In my limited experience with sharing untowered CTAF airspace with RPT, the procedure seemed to be that the PNF monitors the CTAF and then established two way comms with me.

.Isn't it possible to mandate a listening watch and enough broadcast calls to preclude an unannounced arrival or departure?
That is generally the case. A eagle eyed FO with me picked up an issue not that long ago, we sat in the step above the CTAF, very close might I add, he picked up a 206 which soon busted airspace ahead of us. They didn’t obviously have approach on frequency as they couldn’t get hold of them. Just shows how fast it can go pear shaped, very important to keep tabs on that frequency.

Not sure what Virgin’s SOPs are. Was a CASA briefing put up on YouTube a few months ago around this issue, it was presented partly by Ben from Virgin fleet training. A scenario was raised by another pilot in which they had a similar communication issue with one of his aircraft on the frequency.
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