Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Jetstar and Ballina again

Old 31st Mar 2022, 21:59
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PoppaJo
I have raised the issue of CTAFs before with said bodies and the replies are much the same, if people follow the rules, communicate, have trans on, then then what’s the problem. In a perfect world I get the point, however CTAF is largely full of training or low hour pilots. No criticism to them, I was one of those many years ago. However my problems in recent times are things like old mate in the circuit who is not maintaining said height for his class of aircraft and is moving into my territory. Turning base at Ballina I was cut off by someone first solo with no radio call, turning final oh shit there he is in front for me for now number 1. I lost patience and we got out of the place and starting holding until they could sort themselves out. Having an argument with another pilot on the CTAF on why they want the the whole circuit with his students to use the tailwind direction, with 80T me wanting into the wind. People in the training area who turn the volume down whilst they conduct all sorts of air work with me asking questions and no reply. The list goes on and on. My hair gets less and less.

Needless to say we brief like the shit is always going to hit the fan before we enter these areas.
Hey PJ,

I didn't train in the RA-Aus 'system' and I don't fly RAA aircraft, more classic GA 172 etc. I learned at a busy CTAF, albeit without jet traffic. From the first lesson, I was trained on the importance of brevity in my calls, whilst getting the point across succinctly, and perhaps most importantly - giving way to larger aircraft where appropriate - especially those travelling for commerce (ie. RPT).

In my travels around the country it has been interesting to fly at other schools casually and I have seen radical inconsistencies in how pilots are trained on CTAF comms. As most of us know, the regs aren't that proscriptive when it comes to CTAF communications. It seems some schools or instructors operate on the 'tell everyone what you're doing all the time' principal - ie. one school in a Class G area that I flew at mandated calls on each leg of the circuit plus clear of runway etc. Whereas where I was taught, the only recommended call by the AD OPR was a base call, and other calls at pilot discretion.

What I have also observed is that - generally - pilot comms from RAA aircraft seem to be more often than not sub-par, as if they expect every other aircraft to understand where an obscure local reference is, rather than saying e.g.

Shitsville Traffic Jabiru 12345 one zero miles south east 2500 inbound, circuit two six, Shitsville

...you'll get something like this:

Ah all stations in the Shitsville area, um Jabiru 12345 is over the Bogan Street bridge inbound, will be joining dead side of the circuit for full stop.

Now, of course most of the time other aircraft more or less get the message - but at a place like Ballina you have to be accurate in giving your position and you have to be succinct. I should know, I live there and fly in the area.

It bothers me that some of the schools apparently don't even teach their students to check basic things like the scheduled arrival and departure times at BNA and even a quick scan on FR24. This seems to be basic airmanship stuff that is being overlooked!

The fact that a Jabiru (or any light aircraft) was pressuring you to get off the runway is outrageous and I commend you for not having a crack on the CTAF at him or her. Would have been very interesting to pull the rego and find out whether it was a student under instruction or solo flying, or a private aircraft on a private flight.
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Old 31st Mar 2022, 22:24
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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I agree that it's generally the RAAus folk who talk more than others.

I'm intrigued to know: If you were sitting in the PIC seat of an RPT aircraft full of passengers, back tracking (because you have no choice but to) on a runway on which you've just landed, feeling under pressure from a light aircraft on approach to land on that runway, would you really remain mute when the lighty calls short final and you're not clear of the runway? Would you characterise a call addressed to the lighty, merely stating the fact that the runway remains occupied and continuation of the approach and landing would be dangerous and unlawful, as "a crack" at the lighty? What do you reckon your passengers would expect you to do in the circumstances? Just remain mute because you don't want to upset old mate in the lighty?
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Old 31st Mar 2022, 22:58
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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Anything can happen anywhere, to be honest if the tail was infringing the runway strip and the Jabiru elected to do a touch and go there is 99.9% chance that it will occur without contact between aircraft, because the Jabiru pilot maintained visual separation with the Jet while doing it. Would it be legal? hell no, and then there would be all sorts of rigmarole and media coverage about 200 people almost incinerated by a rogue RAA aircraft. I remember in a GAAP years a solo student told "aircraft on the runway, go-around", the student flew around the aircraft holding on the threshold and landed safely (class D would not have changed the outcome), then there's the myriad of aircraft that have taken off and landed on runway center at Moorabbin well past it being closed. I've had to go round at Moorabbin at 20 feet in a chieftain because a Cessna taxied straight out onto the runway at speed mid field thinking it was a taxiway. Laws and regulations don't stop anything from happening, they just allow prosecution and consequence for not doing it. Having a yell at someone that's been told a few times already is just consuming radio space and really doesn't achieve more than just putting your own aircraft in a safer position.

As for Class E vs G, they are en-route airspace rules, they have not much to do with what happens in a CTAF, where if busy the IFR aircraft will in most cases turn down center to concentrate on local traffic. As the Mangalore reports suggests listening to two busy frequencies is really not going to work. Once an RPT is about 10-15 Nm from a busy CTAF they most likely will not hear or respond to ATS calls as they will be busy focusing on separation.

Now lets get real for a moment, hundreds of RPT flights operate in class G daily. Most airprox events occur in controlled airspace or close to a CTAF. RPT with TCAS must report RAs so there would be a good database of conflicts OCTA as well. Extending class E will not prevent these conflicts. Going back to Ballina, how would class E have stopped the 208 taking off reciprocal to the VA 737 on final, then it climbed out and failed to maintain 2000 when asked and conflicted with an A320 as well.

How can you fix these problems?

The real fix is onboard backup that can sense collisions and warn the pilot and come up with a resolution, TCAS, or ADS-B In. Problem, it costs a lot and some GA will resist it on cost base.

Airspace fixes, en-route, yes class E possibly has it's place, but to be honest it really doesn't fix the rogue aircraft issue, not even class C stops someone stupid from just busting in and flying straight through final for a major runway at a capital city airport, transponder or not. At least with transponder ATS has more chance of spotting and following the intruder in a timely manner and aircraft proximity systems have more chance to do their thing.

Class C/D towers would fix a lot of the runway conflicts, but there will still be some. Runway incursions still happen at major controlled airports as well.
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Old 1st Apr 2022, 00:09
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Now lets get real for a moment, hundreds of RPT flights operate in class G daily. Most airprox events occur in controlled airspace or close to a CTAF. RPT with TCAS must report RAs so there would be a good database of conflicts OCTA as well.
You're just not getting it. Transponders aren't required to be fitted to VFR aircraft operating in G.

A while ago there was a near-collision involving an RPT jet at Mildura, all duly reported and investigated by ATSB, on the basis of data produced by the aircraft involved. The laughable irony is that the aircraft that actually came closest to the RPT jet that day was never seen or heard by the jet and the event was never the subject of an investigation, because that other aircraft didn't have a transponder so didn't produce an RA or TA or whatever A in the jet's cockpit.
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Old 1st Apr 2022, 00:27
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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You're just not getting it. Transponders aren't required to be fitted to VFR aircraft operating in G.
And as I said above just making an imaginary line in the sky saying you must have a transponder here, does not stop a transponder-less aircraft from operating there, so there is really no less chance of encountering a rogue transponder-less flying machine in such airspace. The lower you make that threshold the more likely this will happen as those aircraft that are not fitted wander around oblivious to the rule are more contained to low level flight than roaming at say above 5000 feet. You could say all aircraft must have a transponder above 5000 ft and within 15nm of RPT CTAF would really do the job, regardless of airspace. Without primary radar ATS would have no clue if an aircraft without a transponder is in class E or not. Now there are mistakes, but anyone who flies around the wilds of Australia knows there are many pilots that are clueless or just flaunt the rules like flying VFR through cloud or in less than VMC.

Now when I say I like flying around in class G I refer to class G above say 8,000 feet because the likelihood of meeting random aircraft expands rapidly the lower you go past 5000 ft AGL. So above 10,000 all aircraft are required to have a transponder, and while the occasional VFR TBM crosses your path it's really empty airspace and you get timely warning of anything in your area from ATS without needing a clearance.
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Old 1st Apr 2022, 01:06
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Balloon
The laughable irony is that the aircraft that actually came closest to the RPT jet that day was never seen or heard by the jet and the event was never the subject of an investigation, because that other aircraft didn't have a transponder so didn't produce an RA or TA or whatever A in the jet's cockpit.
Details please.
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Old 1st Apr 2022, 01:18
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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There aren't any, at least of which either the ATSB or the jet operator is aware. That's kinda the point...
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Old 1st Apr 2022, 01:32
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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There aren't any, at least of which either the ATSB or the jet operator is aware. That's kinda the point...
So you come on here, make a statement of fact and then refuse to give us the details when asked. What's the point in doing that?
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Old 1st Apr 2022, 01:48
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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The point is the irony I highlighted. Perhaps that escaped you.

BTW: Why are you bothering wasting time in responding to stuff I post? I thought you'd resolved not to do so, because there is no merit in anything I say.
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Old 1st Apr 2022, 02:14
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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Why are you bothering wasting time in responding to stuff I post?
Ordinarily I wouldn't but when you start tearing strips of others eg 43inches, and then post fictitious incidents to justify your argument, I will.
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Old 1st Apr 2022, 02:26
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"tearing off strips"? An unusual way to describe logic and fact-based arguments. Individuals disagreeing with the emphasis placed on or implications drawn from the same set of circumstances isn't 'tearing strips' off someone - at least not in the world in which I exist. Maybe you're getting a bit woke? And I've seen some of your responses to tossbag. Pot calling kettle...

"fictitious"? An unusual way to describe fact.

But I'm grateful to you and 43: The more G the better for me!
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Old 1st Apr 2022, 02:44
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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And another thing. The ATSB completely ignored the role of the CAGRO during the incident. The CAGRO didn't assimilate the potential conflict between the Jabiru and the A320. Now perhaps that isn't their job, but their job at least, I would have thought, would have been to be aware of the Jab (who did make a radio call), find out what they were doing, and to query the A320 when it didn't respond to the Jab's call passing abeam Lismore.

And another. There seems to be a misconception in the ATSB about how See and Avoid is actually employed. A note in the report says:

Pilots are responsible for sighting conflicting traffic, and avoiding a collision, having been alerted to the presence of traffic in their immediate vicinity. This is principally achieved via radio communications.

That is not the way it is done in the heavy world. We "avoid" first, then "see".
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Old 1st Apr 2022, 04:28
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Ordinarily I wouldn't but when you start tearing strips of others
It's par for the course, old mate assumes that making an argument is ranting. He questions others credentials to make comment, when you prefer to keep your deets in a PM rather than mouth off publicly old mate rants and raves about that as well.
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Old 8th Apr 2022, 14:45
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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I have never seen such an envious, insecure and generally low self esteem group of people as what I hope is a very small subset of so called "professional" airline pilots. In my opinion you exacerbate the issue of aircraft of very different performance and capabilities sharing the same airspace by your total lack of respect and even contempt for VFR and RAA pilots. By that I include calling their home fields "Shitsville" (MagnumPI) and in another memorable insult calling VFR flight: "the dogturd sticking to the sole of your shoe". There is much the same contempt visible elsewhere on Australian forums.

So you expect to solve the very real problems of separation by:

(1) Denigrating and abusing what you consider to be the cause of your problem, and

(2) telling a Third party (AsA and CASA) to make your problem go away because the culprets are inferior to you.

This is not a winning strategy for anyone. Furthermore from what I have read from my fellow VFR dogturd driving shitsville pilots in the USA, they do not appear to have the same behavioural problems with Arline pilots, nor airport operators nor regulators at all. We are dealing with a nasty Australian phenomenon here. By way of example, a US colleague flew his little 80 knot shitbox (as you would term it) across the US of A complete with photographs of his orbit around the Statue of Liberty and his landings at airports that make Sydney look small without so much as a reported harsh word or conflict with anyone. Yet you guys cant solve the problem of a third rate place like Ballina without abusing RAA pilots??????

Let me tell you the missing ingredient; respect.

I'll bet Not one of you would deign to speak to an RAA pilot, let alone consider that they might have a valid contribution to make. Same probably goes for AsA and CASA. Therefore you are all speculating on the behavioral issues behind the bugsmashers antics aren't you? No respect.

Did it ever cross your mind that said VFR pilot has no idea of the performance characteristics and operation of your jet? its not part of her training. How could she therefore take into account your requirements and disabilities when arranging her own manouvers? It stands to reason that your problems cannot be solved while there is a one sided conversation because of your toxic lack of respect for anyone else who shares the sky. I say again, this is an Australian behavioural problem as will shortly be proven by the negative response to this post. Now logging out. Ii will no doubt be banned.
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Old 8th Apr 2022, 22:22
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Sunfish,

I think you’re shooting rather wide of the mark.

Firstly, myself and plenty of other airline pilots have complete respect for GA / RAA. We started our careers there, and many are still involved. I still have a current Grade 1 Instructor Rating, for example. Many of my colleagues own their own aircraft.

What the airline pilots on this topic have suggested, is that there are pilots of light aircraft around BNA who do not conform to what would be expected of aircraft operating in the vicinity of RPT jet aircraft. You expect the airline pilots to show professionalism, just as much as the airline pilots expect the most basic level of airmanship by using a radio, and turning on a transponder (if fitted) to the right mode.

Much can be learnt by both sides - I cringe every time I hear an RPT aircraft reference the RNP waypoints rather than distance and compass bearing from the airport. But I am lost for words with the fact the Jabiru into BNA wasn’t making radio calls. That is borderline negligent behaviour in light of the number of incidents going on there, and the clear issues that are in play around BNA. Anyone sitting at the controls of an aircraft around the BNA area should be highly in tune to these issues. There are multiple ATSB reports, there is an AIP Supp about the radio requirements there, etc etc. As such anyone flying into BNA (regardless of the size of the aircraft) should be doing so with heightened awareness. To be ignorant now is totally unacceptable - no matter who the party is.

Whilst the GA aircraft might not have any idea as to the performance of Jet aircraft, maybe I can help here. Very basically:

- At 30nm from the airport, jet aircraft will be at roughly 10,000’ and be doing 250kts, and about 1500fpm and be about 7-8mins from landing.
- At 25nm, sometimes more, sometimes less, the aircraft will likely start tracking to the point where commencement of the approach will occur. So if flying to BNA from the south and landing on 24, this is where we may start to track out to the east. This should be communicated in the inbound call
- At 20nm and 5000’, this is where the jet aircraft will roughly start slowing down, and descent rate will start coming back towards 800fpm
- At 10nm and 3000’, the aircraft being at roughly 200kts and will begin final configuration (gear, final flap).
- Below 1000’ we will be at our final approach speed. This is still likely around 140-150kts.
- Landing distance at BNA can be tight, especially when heavy and the runway is wet or with tailwind. There are occasions where we can’t accept any tailwind on landing as the runway isn’t long enough. When landing on 24, it’s not unusual for us to still have to back track the runway to exit on the taxiways.
- I can’t convey how difficult it is to see a light aircraft whilst on final (or in general). And I say this as someone who still flys GA aircraft and is used to where to look and what to look for whilst in a busy circuit such as at Moorabbin.

To try and dumb this problem down as ‘lack of respect’ by jet pilots, doesn’t do the issue any justice, and I think is completely wrong.

I will finish on this note; for the love of god please turn on your mode C transponder if you have one, and please use the radio. No one cares if your broadcast doesn’t sound right, if necessary just talk in plain English and tell me what you are doing. ‘I am over Richmond River mouth and I’m tracking along the beach at 1000’ to Byron’ is a lot easier to manage than incorrect positional information because you’re trying to get the ‘right’ words out, or no broadcast at all. If I have any questions, I will ask!
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Old 9th Apr 2022, 00:04
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Colonel_Klink
Sunfish,

I think you’re shooting rather wide of the mark.
I don't. You only have to look at this very report to see that. There is not a single skerrick of info about the Jetstar crew having any consideration for anyone other than IFR traffic. CAAP166 says radio calls from IFR aircraft should be in plain english, yet this crew insisted on using IFR and RNAV waypoints. Why? "I'm in a shiny jet and need to prove I can do stuff you can't!"? They mean stuff-all to anyone other than another RPT arrival, yet they don't make up the majority of the traffic around that CTAF/BA, and probably contributed to why ol' mate in the Jabiru wouldn't have assimilated the threat even if he had heard it in the first place - simply because he had no bloody idea where waypoint OPESO was even though he almost overflew it!
Originally Posted by Colonel_Klink
What the airline pilots on this topic have suggested, is that there are pilots of light aircraft around BNA who do not conform to what would be expected of aircraft operating in the vicinity of RPT jet aircraft. You expect the airline pilots to show professionalism, just as much as the airline pilots expect the most basic level of airmanship by using a radio, and turning on a transponder (if fitted) to the right mode.
I'll certainly agree with you regarding the transponder, that's simply inexcusable, but again, ol' mate did use the radio, and correctly in my view. His calls referenced Lismore airport, as his track took him much closer to Lismore than Ballina, probably around 3NM vs 10NM. Why would you reference an airport 10 miles distant when another is passing under your right wing?
Originally Posted by Colonel_Klink
Much can be learnt by both sides - I cringe every time I hear an RPT aircraft reference the RNP waypoints rather than distance and compass bearing from the airport. But I am lost for words with the fact the Jabiru into BNA wasn’t making radio calls. That is borderline negligent behaviour in light of the number of incidents going on there, and the clear issues that are in play around BNA.
Best you go read the report again. Or for the first time, before you start casting aspersions on the Jab pilot (beyond his misuse of the transponder, that is, I'll give you that one as I agree with you there). From the report:
Originally Posted by The ATSB
At 1124:49, the pilot of 7456 made a broadcast on the shared CTAF, addressed to Lismore traffic, advising that the aircraft was 4 NM to the east of Lismore at 5,300 feet and descending. The flight crew of VGP did not respond to (or recall hearing) this broadcast.
So not only did the Jab miss the Jetstar crew's inbound message, they missed his (correctly made, IMHO) broadcast. And he wasn't going into (or near) Ballina, his destination was Evans Head.

Originally Posted by Colonel_Klink
I will finish on this note; for the love of god please turn on your mode C transponder if you have one, and please use the radio. No one cares if your broadcast doesn’t sound right, if necessary just talk in plain English and tell me what you are doing. ‘I am over Richmond River mouth and I’m tracking along the beach at 1000’ to Byron’ is a lot easier to manage than incorrect positional information because you’re trying to get the ‘right’ words out, or no broadcast at all. If I have any questions, I will ask!
The same goes for any IFR arrival. Though I don't (yet) have my IFR ticket, I've stufied enough to know the basics, can display IFR waypoints - and routinely use them in normal VFR operations to make Centre's life easier - but there are an awful lot of VFR aircraft out there that can't or don't do that, so when Captain Fourbars and his Effo reference a waypoint or flying the GPS arrival via Echo Charlie, that's not doing a thing for anyone's SA beyond showing how much of a git you are. Granted if there's 3000m vis and a 500' ceiling, it would be appropriate as that's IMC, but on a sunny day? Comply with the bloody CAAP and make everyone's lives safer.

Last edited by KRviator; 9th Apr 2022 at 00:33.
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Old 9th Apr 2022, 01:00
  #257 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish
By way of example, a US colleague flew his little 80 knot shitbox (as you would term it) across the US of A complete with photographs of his orbit around the Statue of Liberty and his landings at airports that make Sydney look small without so much as a reported harsh word or conflict with anyone.
How much was under radar coverage?
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Old 9th Apr 2022, 01:06
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish
I have never seen such an envious, insecure and generally low self esteem group of people as what I hope is a very small subset of so called "professional" airline pilots.
The precision of your observation reminds me of some trying surgery for first time with hedge trimmers.
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Old 9th Apr 2022, 01:09
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Originally Posted by Sunfish
I have never seen such an envious, insecure and generally low self esteem group of people as what I hope is a very small subset of so called "professional" airline pilots. In my opinion you exacerbate the issue of aircraft of very different performance and capabilities sharing the same airspace by your total lack of respect and even contempt for VFR and RAA pilots. By that I include calling their home fields "Shitsville" (MagnumPI) and in another memorable insult calling VFR flight: "the dogturd sticking to the sole of your shoe". There is much the same contempt visible elsewhere on Australian forums.

So you expect to solve the very real problems of separation by:

(1) Denigrating and abusing what you consider to be the cause of your problem, and

(2) telling a Third party (AsA and CASA) to make your problem go away because the culprets are inferior to you.

This is not a winning strategy for anyone. Furthermore from what I have read from my fellow VFR dogturd driving shitsville pilots in the USA, they do not appear to have the same behavioural problems with Arline pilots, nor airport operators nor regulators at all. We are dealing with a nasty Australian phenomenon here. By way of example, a US colleague flew his little 80 knot shitbox (as you would term it) across the US of A complete with photographs of his orbit around the Statue of Liberty and his landings at airports that make Sydney look small without so much as a reported harsh word or conflict with anyone. Yet you guys cant solve the problem of a third rate place like Ballina without abusing RAA pilots??????

Let me tell you the missing ingredient; respect.

I'll bet Not one of you would deign to speak to an RAA pilot, let alone consider that they might have a valid contribution to make. Same probably goes for AsA and CASA. Therefore you are all speculating on the behavioral issues behind the bugsmashers antics aren't you? No respect.

Did it ever cross your mind that said VFR pilot has no idea of the performance characteristics and operation of your jet? its not part of her training. How could she therefore take into account your requirements and disabilities when arranging her own manouvers? It stands to reason that your problems cannot be solved while there is a one sided conversation because of your toxic lack of respect for anyone else who shares the sky. I say again, this is an Australian behavioural problem as will shortly be proven by the negative response to this post. Now logging out. Ii will no doubt be banned.
Far out Sunfish, I can practically see the spittle flying from your mouth as you've worked yourself up into a rage!

For the record, I call every town in regional Australia Shitsville. It's a term of endearment, I myself am lucky enough to live there.

Secondly, I'm not a jet pilot and I don't fly commercially. I'm just a GA weekend warrior. I've never said that RAA pilots are 'less than' or that their opinion and experiences shouldn't inform airspace design and safety rules. I did, however, question the integrity of the training that many RAA pilots receive on proper radio communications.

I fly at Ballina and in Northern NSW. Do you? Have you seen first hand the risks with a diverse mix of traffic operating in an around a non-controlled airport with c. 500k of pax coming in annually? It's not that RAA pilots or GA pilots or RPT jet pilots are 'the problem', it's that we appear to be saddled with a third world airspace solution that will only change once there is a smoking crater in the ground.

If you are seriously claiming that the average VFR pilot is not trained to be aware of the hazards of jet traffic, then I don't know which system you've trained under. Despite learning at a CTAF with no jet traffic, I had a number of navexes to Class D and Class C airports with jet traffic in the CTR and CTA around. Is this missing from the RAA syllabus?


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Old 9th Apr 2022, 01:24
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While I love reading the stuff above, if we have a problem in Australia, why don't we fix it?

I note in today's papers that new air routes in and out of Busselton are being developed and Kalgoorlie has re-surfaced their runway in order to start direct services to Melbourne and Adelaide. Where I live jet services into Hervey Bay are proliferating, Ballina will grow in importance, Mount Isa still thrives, which uncontrolled airport is next?

There are accepted world-wide practises that cater for such developments, but we continue to try to be unique and invent "Australian" solutions. If this was ever going to work we would have Australian solutions to everything! Something I do not observe outside of aviation.

1. Adopt the US Class E model to at least offer passengers in IFR aircraft separation from other IFR aircraft. (Waiting for universal ADS-B fitment is a pipe dream - so loved by Canberra!)
2. If our Government monopoly ANSP cannot provide improved aerodrome services due to political constraints (i.e Cost Recovery) then allow airports to manage their adjacent airspace.
We allow the ADF to do it although some of their airports are less busy than civil airports, Oakey and Nowra come to mind.
Why should the management of, say Ballina, not have the option to introduce an ATS to make their product more attractive to airlines and others. (Please spare me the babble about pilots not needing air traffic control, that seems to be another Australian solution)
An airport can voluntarily develop runways, taxiways, terminal buildings, buy an NDB, have a UNICOM or a CA/GRS. It cannot, however, create a control zone, build a control tower and employ air traffic controllers! To do this it requires the permission of two monolithic Canberra departments of Government, CASA and Airservices Australia. These two are allowed by their political masters to ignore world's best practise and continually kick cans down the road, waiting for what?
Oh, I forgot, ATSB thinks ADS-B will solve the problem, clearly they are not the solution, just part of the problem.
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