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Sydney-Canberra proposed Twin-Otter floatplane service

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Sydney-Canberra proposed Twin-Otter floatplane service

Old 8th Dec 2020, 06:10
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
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I have flown the Twin Otter and it is a magnificent aircraft. But it is purpose designed to go where other aircraft cant.
Think the Himalayas ( Kathmandu - Lukla) , PNG or island hopping.
Flat out it will do 180 kts but usually 150-160. A Dash 8-400 300-350kts .
Bouncing around at 10,000 ft for an hour in summer or through a cold front in winter ? I don’t think so.
Maybe save a few minutes to and from the airport.
Maybe novelty value for tourists but thats about bit.
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 06:58
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I wish 'em luck, they are gunna need lots of it! -)
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 08:47
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Its thought bubbles like this that requires you to start with a large fortune in aviation...you know the rest.
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 09:04
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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I have flown from Coal Harbour in Vancouver over to Victoria a few times and enjoyed every minute. That’s a flight about a third of the distance SYD-CBR. So figure on 1:10 plus vectors and arrival for a flight getting bashed in low level turbulence. Sign me up!
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 09:32
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Great idea but I can't see the Government allowing it on strategic policy grounds. CASA would, I think also not allow it even if it was technically possible. There will be a demonstration flight and then the project will be allowed to die in a welter of committees.

My reasoning is simple; Such a service, were it permitted and succeeds, would provide a constant reminder of the utility of General aviation (Little aircraft) to the public, public servants and legislators. Its the perfect advertisement for GA - which is why it can't be permitted.

A successful service raises a whole series of very uncomfortable policy questions for the Department of Transport and CASA. Here are some of them:

- Considering the billions we have spent on Sydney transport systems, Badgery's creek, freeways, etc. Why is this service even needed? Could it be that our major investment has been wasted? Our transport planning does not allow for floatplanes! Especially not in a designed environment like Canberra!

- Considering that the National Capital now has a floatplane service, how can any government or authority reject applications for similar services across Australia? It's the thin end of the wedge! How do we prevent private float planes from landing?

- What does this do to our "Green" credentials? Will Labor support such a service? The greens will go nuts!

- Considering the success of this service, what does this demonstration of the usefulness of GA aircraft mean for our policy positions on such things as airport privatisation, infrastructure investment as well as transport planning? What just happened to our "One size fits all" big airport model?

- How can CASA regulate or interfere with such a highly visible service? How do they regulate other services? With what effect?

These are just a few of the uncomfortable questions that would be asked but mustn't.
You are a miserable human being. Does anything good ever happen in your day Sunfish? Or do you wake up angry, stay angry and then go to bed angry?
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 10:01
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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It's a shame you can't open a thread now without the usual suspects engaging in a childish pi$$ing contest and a bit of little willy waving.

Both entertaining and sad at the same time.

CC
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 11:23
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by morno View Post
You are a miserable human being. Does anything good ever happen in your day Sunfish? Or do you wake up angry, stay angry and then go to bed angry?
Actually, I think he's spot on re the outlook on GA by various elements of gov't. He doesn't sound angry or miserable to me; cynical maybe, correct too, but not angry. The meds must've kicked in. This is not the Sunfish who has left the building in disgust numerous times, this is the medicated but clear-thinking version. I think the other version is more entertaining.
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 12:45
  #28 (permalink)  
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- What does this do to our "Green" credentials? Will Labor support such a service? The greens will go nuts!
Just get a battery powered Twin Otter and every pollie will be lining up.

You wouldn't think there were too many spare Otters floating around!
Just buy new Viking Twin Otter
https://www.vikingair.com/viking-air...c-6-twin-otter
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 14:19
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jportzer View Post
This service was single pilot, no flight attendant. Each passenger was issued a belt mounted life jacket which you had to have at the ready during the flight (though you didn't actually fully don it). My understanding is this was a condition of approval for single engine operations in RPT - you must always be within gliding distance of a landing area, and the ocean counted but it was presumed an ocean landing would not necessarily be upright, hence the life jackets.
If you aren't wearing it when you hit the water, it may as well be stuffed inside your left boot for all the good it will do you.
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 15:18
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
So how does this all work in IMC? The departure/arrival/approach tracking alone is difficult once in cloud. You could make up some IFR Water Approaches and some SIDs & STARs but how low are they going to get you with all the terrain around? Not to mention the icing. Unless they are prepared to throw alot of money at this operation I doubt it will get off the ground.
There's at least one seaplane base with instrument procedures: Greenville, Maine. But in Alaska, where floatplane operations are routine, even their busiest place, Lake Hood near Anchorage, doesn't have instrument procedures AFAIK.
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 18:28
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Vag and Morno, I fail to understand how you got the idea that I want such a service to fail???? I very much want to see it succeed! What my post attempted to do was catalogue some of the barriers to getting such a service in place.

The company is going to need a PR strategy to ensure that all the barriers, including the ones I've mentioned, are surmounted. If they fail to do that, they may succeed technically but lose the battle.

For example the "Green" argument needs to be addressed e.g No need for expensive infrastructure and very small environmental footprint. Minimises road use and automotive greenhouse gas emission, etc., etc.

I would very much like to see far more use made of floatplanes for short haul as well as tourism. My mate floatplane pilot "Rocket Rod" would agree. They are one of my favourite modes of transport. Last float trip was a caravan from Hanoi to Halong Bay which saves about three hours on the road.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 01:00
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie View Post
I have ridden the Single Otter from Victoria to Vancouver, and it is a gorgeous flight - over water all the way, perfect for a forced landing in a single floatplane. Our baggage went by bus on the ferry - not much space in an Otter when you put the pax on board.

Somebody in CA$A will be licking his lips as he contemplates the Fees and Charges applicable to this simple run. And Sydney Airports Corporation will be screaming about missing out on a landing fee.
I understand a turbo Otter is a 3400# payload machine so 10 peeps at 250#(includes bags) and 1.5 hr fuel is at about 3300#
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 02:24
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
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How about this for a proposal operation. It's only a brainstorm.
If the economics work, what about the Beriev BE-200 would that work.

The Beriev Be-200 Altair (Russian: Бериев Бе-200) is a utility amphibious aircraft designed and built by the Beriev Aircraft Company. Marketed as being designed for fire fighting, search and rescue, maritime patrol, cargo, and passenger transportation, it has a capacity of 12,000 litres (3,200 US gal) of water, or up to 72 passengers.

As you can see this aircraft has all the equipment like a 737NG, regarding IFR and weather terrain etc, they could easily design
a non Pan-Ops proprietary RNP-AR approach into Lake Burley Griffen and Rose bay.
I suppose the only problem is funding, CASA, and the Greenies.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 03:31
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Seaplane? Take the Australian ultra-high speed train. Enjoy a snack of low-tide Thai sushi, and a plastic flute of luke-warm Yellow Tail wine !
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 11:04
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Beriev Be-200
Except that there are only 17 in existence, and none of them are used to carry passengers. It needs 1000m to take off and 1300m to land. The lake looks pretty limited to where you can get those distances with a reasonable clearance from land. Can't imagine that a noisy jet in and out of CBR's lake would be very popular either.
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Old 9th Dec 2020, 20:55
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Ahhh ok if the Be-200 is too noisy how about the - Spruce Goose?

Hang on before you call me crazy, Clive Palmer was going to build the Titanic II! Surely he will be interested in the Goose II!!!

Think about it, now this has serious merit.



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Old 9th Dec 2020, 22:05
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by evansb View Post
Seaplane? Take the Australian ultra-high speed train. Enjoy a snack of low-tide Thai sushi, and a plastic flute of luke-warm Yellow Tail wine !
Ah yes. Australia’s version of the Japanese ‘Bullet Train’: The Shit-Can-Zen.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 01:35
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
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Maybe the Short Sunderlands should make a come back. At least it's probably got better climb performance than HH monstrosity.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 01:57
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
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HH Goose. An early WIGE ? since it only flew in ground effect could call it the SanFransico Bay Monster or wherever it was tested.
Recent news shows that great beast the Caspian Sea Monster. one of being saved from a watery grave.
I'd like to see that,!

As for the seaplane service..great idea, but CAsA doesnt like enterpreneurs. Hope it gets up but I would posit red tape, green tape and time will make it very difficilt..if not impossible
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 22:12
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Originally Posted by aroa View Post
HH Goose. An early WIGE ? since it only flew in ground effect could call it the SanFransico Bay Monster or wherever it was tested.
Recent news shows that great beast the Caspian Sea Monster. one of being saved from a watery grave.
I'd like to see that,!

As for the seaplane service..great idea, but CAsA doesnt like enterpreneurs. Hope it gets up but I would posit red tape, green tape and time will make it very difficilt..if not impossible
I doubt the economics work out but something like this between sydney and canberra would be cool... A little faster than twin otter on floats....
https://dornierseawings.com/products/seastar/

I wonder if you can leave out the landing gear i.e. commit to be water only and have a higher useful load....
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