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Qatar disgrace

Old 26th Oct 2020, 13:13
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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KeyPilot, following the witness in the article below, the searches were made in ambulances staffed by operatives wearing "surgical clothes, surgical gear".

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...-search-ordeal

By comparison, are strip searches at airports normally conducted by medical staff or regular immigration/customs guys?
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 13:13
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone who has been working in this area can’t be surprised. It’s a dictatorship where human rights mean nothing.

the first question to ask is why the baby was left in the first place. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the mother was fleeing Qatar as she was “illegally” being pregnant. Maybe she wasn’t married, maybe she had a one night stand, maybe she was being raped. No matter what happened she is still committing a crime if she is pregnant but not married. We should have banned the ME3 many years ago.
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 13:16
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Superman1 View Post
KeyPilot

Are you joking? Yes it was, it was disgraceful behaviour and disgusting response unfortunately not unexpected in that part of the world.
By which reasons do you come to this conclusion?

In an investigation of a serious offence in "Western" countries (of which, one supposes, most of us here are citizens), it is common for people to be arrested, detained for several days, repeatedly questioned, released on bail (with significant restrictions on their liberty), even if they are ultimately not charged with any crime. Do we think the treatment of some passengers on this flight was significantly worse than this?

Again, I believe we are missing some key facts, and until they are out in the open then we should resist the urge to rush to judgement. Of course, if the Qataris withhold or obfuscate key facts, then that is another matter and we may rightly draw inferences from this.

Ultimately, whether one judges this to be "right" or "wrong" by Western standards is anyway not the point - this was carried out on Qatari soil. The "right question" is whether it was right by Qatari standards, which one has to suppose it was. Then, if ones doesn't like Qatari standards, one can choose never to go there nor fly on their airline!
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 13:16
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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We go to similar lengths to expose those suspected of drug smuggling on a daily basis.

Searches of an intimate nature, that is.

Could have just as easily gone this way -

https://www.thestar.com.my/news/regi...h-help-of-crew
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 13:31
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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You want to be part of the "global world" you have to understand most things will be in shades of grey - accept it or move on.

Stupid thing is if there was any one country/continent in the world who could "secede" and have the resources to live a bloody good life without being involved in the crap of the rest of the world it's Australia. Opportunity lost apparently.

Read something in the paper regards Israel Falou (?) where he stated his priroities were faith, then family, then (in think) country.
IMHO Australia was built on self improvement, family advancement then faith to support those improvement for those inclined towards faith.

Australia moved away from ethnic based immigration and has allowed a faith that has trouble understanding or, more importantly, agreeing with Australian laws and ethos to come in the mistaken belief they want a "better life".
Maybe in concept - but their faith won't generally allow it.

Anyhow Australia will protest - rightly, Qatar will argue - rightly for their mentality....and a similar thing may well happen yet again.
Such are the benefits of the global world. Aren't we lucky!

Cheers
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 13:53
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Actually a challenging exercise to come up with how to deal with that whole unfortunate situation, the time constraints, nationalities, somewhat urgent needs of the child and so on.

It would be nice to see the matter resolved; not sure what a Qatari orphanage would be like.
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 13:56
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KeyPilot View Post
Lots of Qatari- (and indirectly Arab-)bashing here but (as a few others have hinted) there is an alternative view.

Abandoning a child is a criminal offence in most (if not all) Western countries as well as (I presume) Qatar. Doing so in circumstances where the child was left unsafe - as seems to be the case here - or might not have been found for some time (as could easily happen if the toilets were in a gate area, and the next flight wasn't for quite some hours) could easily have led to the child's death and hence the potential crime of manslaughter (or local equivalent).

Given that the local authorities were investigating a potentially serious offence, do we believe that their means of doing so were disproportionate? Australia appears to be making this claim although not in a very structured or logically reasoned way - just making bold statements of outrage, filled with hyperbole but little objectivity. I wonder what Qatar makes of the Australian travel restrictions, keeping families (some of which will be Qatari) apart for months on end? I wonder if they find that to be proportionate?

I agree that we are missing some key facts here, in my mind the key ones being:
- was the child found alive or deceased?
- if alive, was it found (i) safe and (ii) such that it was likely to be found quickly, or could it have gone unnoticed for a prolonged period?
- to what form of examination were the passengers subjected? Was it carried out by a clinician? How were the relevant passengers selected? Were they invited to consent (and if so, under any form of duress e.g. lest they miss the flight?).

If anyone comes across more facts then please share! Also, the time lag between the event and its reporting it is indeed strange, does anyone know of the reasons?

In general, I would say let's get the evidence first, then form conclusions second. After all, as professional aviators isn't that what we are trained to do?

KP
What he said precisely.
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 14:02
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pinky the pilot View Post
o. As for getting the Premiers to open their borders; What powers does the PM/Federal Govt actually possess which he could use to force them to do so?
Firearm laws are a state responsibility, however after Port Arthur the PM at the time managed to quickly get all states and territories onboard for a national firearms consensus (which was so strongly opposed in some quarters he was wearing a bullet proof vest at speeches for a while) by showing strong leadership. Our current PM? There's a reason he's nicknamed Scotty from marketing. No leadership skills, just a spin doctor. A real leader would've led the nation and not allowed 6 states to act in their own ways throughout this crisis, and just sit back and fiddle with the bank accounts. Apart from a few lukewarm requests, our current PM isn't really doing much bring the states together for a national Covid consensus. Or a national plan for international air travel, like how our airlines will be able to compete internationally once the international borders re-open.
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 14:35
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
You can't ban an airline for following the law in their own country. ScoMo has zero ability to do anything even if he wanted to. Once you play at a Sovereign State level there are no real rules to speak of.
Look at the Uyghur situation or the recognition of Taiwan. I'm sure the Australian government doesn't not agree with any of it but what can they do about it? Ban China Southern?

The only option is for Australian citizens to never fly with an airline if they don't agree.
This is one of my top 10 all time favourite PPRuNe posts - each point is 100% correct

Many people are glibly suggesting banning Qatar Airways on human rights grounds. Qatar is ranked #127 in world by Cato Institute for human freedom. Ban them, and you will obviously direct traffic to Etihad, Emirates, China Southern, Air China et al. And the rankings of the UAE and China? #128 and #126 respectively....
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 14:37
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by On eyre View Post
What he said precisely.
Thank you for the kind comment On Eyre, however I direct you to neville_nobody's post above which is a rare (for here!) piece of well reasoned commentary, and which has the added advantage of being considerably more succinct than mine!
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 14:51
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by currawong View Post
Actually a challenging exercise to come up with how to deal with that whole unfortunate situation, the time constraints, nationalities, somewhat urgent needs of the child and so on.

It would be nice to see the matter resolved; not sure what a Qatari orphanage would be like.
Agree with this as well

Although, as the richest country in the world, one supposes that Qatari orphanages aren't that bad (cf Romanian orphanages, 1980s/early 1990s....)
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 15:05
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Kent Based View Post
KeyPilot, following the witness in the article below, the searches were made in ambulances staffed by operatives wearing "surgical clothes, surgical gear".

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...-search-ordeal

By comparison, are strip searches at airports normally conducted by medical staff or regular immigration/customs guys?
I have read this article, and I don't find anything therein to be particularly shocking.

If there were only 9 female pax on the flight (out of a total of 34 - wow that's a low load factor) and the location of the toilet was such that the person who committed the offence of abandoning the baby almost certainly had to be one of them, then examining them to determine which it was seems reasonable to me. Especially when one considers that, to diagnose recent childbirth, a visual examination of the external genitalia by a physician should almost certainly be sufficient.

It's a good point to compare immigration/customs strip searches, which are routinely carried out in Western countries and without any requirement for a court order (or similar) - it is (in my country) purely at the discretion of a senior customs officer.

Admittedly I am a man so it's hard to construct an analogous situation, however if for example I was one of 9 men on a flight, and there was a suspected serious offence (rape? drug smuggling?) and I was required to have my genitalia simply looked at by a doctor in an ambulance, sure I would not like it very much, but it would be hard to argue that something "disgusting", "shocking" or "disgraceful" had taken place...
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 16:25
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KeyPilot View Post

Admittedly I am a man so it's hard to construct an analogous situation, however if for example I was one of 9 men on a flight, and there was a suspected serious offence (rape? drug smuggling?) and I was required to have my genitalia simply looked at by a doctor in an ambulance, sure I would not like it very much, but it would be hard to argue that something "disgusting", "shocking" or "disgraceful" had taken place...
I think most men - certainly those in the civilised world would fundamentally disagree with you. I for one would find it utterly repugnant at being forced into such a situation. The fact that you seem to dismiss the whole incident as a trival matter is somewhat concerning.
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 16:54
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The96er View Post
I think most men - certainly those in the civilised world would fundamentally disagree with you. I for one would find it utterly repugnant at being forced into such a situation. The fact that you seem to dismiss the whole incident as a trival matter is somewhat concerning.
Sure, you (and anyone else) are free to agree or disagree, that is the nature of debate. However I would take issue with the claim that I "dismiss the whole incident as a trivial matter". I most certainly do not. You will see that primarily I have called for more evidence before reaching a conclusion; but also have sought to consider a balance between the rights of the women in question, versus the rights of the local authorities to investigate a potentially serious crime, which has as its victim one of the most vulnerable people one could care to imagine. Most previous posters seemed to dismiss the latter - I don't.

KP
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 22:36
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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I don't have a dog in the race but:
What were the alternatives?
1. Detain all female passengers while an investigation was carried out, maybe days.
2. Detain while blood tests/DNA tests were taken and processed, maybe days.
3. Offer voluntary examination for release while rest detained for investigation.

Question no one has offered an answer to here. What would have happened if a baby had been discovered in a bathroom at Sydney Airport next to aircraft departing for Doha with mainly Arab passengers? (Or given the world's taboos about offending Muslims, Australian passengers.)

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Old 26th Oct 2020, 22:53
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Whilst disturbing to our nation/laws it's their country/state and their laws!
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 23:04
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChrisVJ View Post

Question no one has offered an answer to here. What would have happened if a baby had been discovered in a bathroom at Sydney Airport next to aircraft departing for Doha with mainly Arab passengers? (Or given the world's taboos about offending Muslims, Australian passengers.)
I'm not sure what course of action would have been taken if the situation was reversed in SYD, however, I'm absolutley 100% certain that NO female passengers would be subjected to the treatment that the SYD bound passengers and possibly others were subjected to in DOH.
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Old 26th Oct 2020, 23:26
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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”Keypilot”, you are a $5#4ing ignorant disgrace or perhaps a very clever troll. Go live in Qatar.

However I will bite. Yes, countries can and do classify what are misdemeanours in another country as serious crimes in theirs.

However, Qatari treatment contravenes articles 5, 9 ,11 and 12 of the international declaration of human rights, let alone western standards of justice including the presumption of innocence, due process, natural justice and the arrest criteria including probable cause.

Yes, “if you don’t like it, don’t go there”. Agreed and as a bare minimum I call for all Qatari trade to be terminated, including airline flights and the country to be sanctioned as the equivalent of north korea. And that goes double for the whole arabian peninsula. The only reason anyone tolerates these medieval scumbags is their oil.
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 00:51
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by KeyPilot View Post
Sure, you (and anyone else) are free to agree or disagree, that is the nature of debate. However I would take issue with the claim that I "dismiss the whole incident as a trivial matter". I most certainly do not. You will see that primarily I have called for more evidence before reaching a conclusion; but also have sought to consider a balance between the rights of the women in question, versus the rights of the local authorities to investigate a potentially serious crime, which has as its victim one of the most vulnerable people one could care to imagine. Most previous posters seemed to dismiss the latter - I don't.

KP
So, here is a question:

If it was YOUR WIFE, or YOUR DAUGHTER - OR BOTH - you would be comfortable and compliant with the whole scenario?
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Old 27th Oct 2020, 01:22
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by machtuk View Post
Whilst disturbing to our nation/laws it's their country/state and their laws!
But as I mentioned before, these passengers were not travelling to/from Qatar. They flew on an airline that heavily markets itself in the west, that simply hubs through Qatar.

To suggest people should do so understanding they will be subject to the draconian laws of Qatar is unreasonable.
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