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Virgin 3.0

Old 28th Sep 2020, 02:38
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Originally Posted by gordonfvckingramsay View Post
If you’re asking why I’m so negative towards Bain (and most of the corporate world), take a broader look at what’s going on.

The “rescue”, as it has been erroneously labeled, happened as a result of a master stroke of corporate malfeasance. VA was run into the ground by a hopelessly inept ruling class. The company wouldn’t need rescuing if it had been run properly in the first place. Previous CEOs knowingly destroyed the airline for personal gain. YOU PAY.

Armed with the heroic persona it gave itself, Bain is now charging to our rescue; another hopelessly inept group of ruling class purporting to be management. The crisis created by their own kind is now continuing into perpetuity, and their bank accounts. YOU PAY.

The “rescue package“, on offer is done so safe in the knowledge that we all have bills to pay, kids to school, mortgages, etc... I’ve never seen a rescue where the one being rescued is done so at gunpoint. Have you? Now we are all fighting one another for the “opportunity” to avail ourselves of this gunpoint rescue. The pilot group turns on itself. YOU PAY.

People get on here propagating the idea that to lie back and think of England is the only way to save yourselves. We’re even supposed to be thankful. Why is it that aviation is the only skilled industry on earth that exists in a constant state of economic hardship, yet returns record growth, record profits, record management salaries?

I don’t buy one little bit of the offer. If Bain truly want to rescue the airline, they should focus on getting the fleet back in the air as soon as domestic borders open again and start the revenue flowing, instead of starting a dirty war with its staff. If only we had laws against collective “negotiations” under duress in this country.

We will all likely lose a friend or acquaintance through this, and I don’t mean not being mates anymore, people will be enveloped by the stress and some won’t make it through. Yet we are all supposed to be thankful for the “rescue”, fvck that!

Airline staff are NOT expensive and they work bloody hard, usually making many times their “cost” in revenue every year.

Out...
I agree with almost all of that. Particularly the bit about previous management, and in my opinion JB and EB should be pursued for their role in this. Nevertheless, that doesn't change the current situation and I think there is a bit of disconnect between what the employees think the future Virgin should look like, and what the current owners know it will look like. My worthless view is that, despite wishes to the contrary, this is basically a startup outfit and remaining employees are in similar position to the original Virgin employees, which is to say that crap conditions are probably necessary to get the show on the road. Bearing in mind the original Virgin didn't face the huge challenge that Covid presents. My thoughts would be for the unions to propose a 1 year deal to give everyone time to see what the future looks like, and then renegotiate with a clearer picture of what the airline, industry and economy looks like. The struggle never ends, sometimes the company has the leverage, sometimes the workers. It's pretty clear who has the upper hand at the moment. Work with the reality, and plan for the future. The wheel will turn and Australian industrial legislation is fairly favourable for workers (Current Covid ammendments notwithstanding). We fought for, and won, continually improving conditions over the last 20 years. It is not reasonable to expect to retain those conditions given the state of the airline, industry and economy. Rex has assured us that the competitive landscape will be significantly more difficult than pre Covid. As frustrating as it will be, i would lean toward accepting a shit sandwich in return for jobs, while ensuring that Bain cannot lock shit conditions in for more than a year. One thing is for certain, Godfrey and Borghetti were amateurs when it comes to IR. Bain will be as ruthless as can be, and they won't be here for long. The sooner thay can turn a profit and sell the business the sooner they will be gone. Some long term thinking is required I think.
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 03:29
  #222 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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But Safety is the number One priority!
Blackout is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2020, 06:19
  #223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Originally Posted by virginexcess View Post
in my opinion JB and EB should be pursued for their role in this.
Too funny - "in my opinion". I've seen this written and heard it spoken time and time again and it's just the proverbial "group think" scenario of classic pilot naivety as to how things work in the real world. Sounds warm and fuzzy in the bar to make everyone feel better, but unless they have collectively breached the Corporations Act, the Competition and Consumer Act, or any other number of applicable legislation (which they haven't), then a company going into administration doesn't make them personally liable as directors, CEOs, Chair or board members. It's that simple.

Please just stop with the rhetorical nonsense. It doesn't matter how many time people say "they should be held liable/pursued", it's just not going to happen because it can't and just makes you sound ignorant!
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 16:15
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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Dragon is right. An English judge said words to the effect that Directors conduct is bounded by strict laws but there is no law requiring them to be intelligent.
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 17:26
  #225 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Originally Posted by virginexcess View Post
... My thoughts would be for the unions to propose a 1 year deal to give everyone time to see what the future looks like, and then renegotiate with a clearer picture of what the airline, industry and economy looks like...
No. No. No.

To agree to a one-year 40% pay cut to “renegotiate in one year’s time” would require a 66% pay rise negotiation (do the maths) in an EBA in 12 months time just to get back to where you were. You would be negotiating with the same mob. Good luck with that.

It's pretty clear who has the upper hand at the moment.
Yes, it is. You. The pilot group.

This ain’t China, or the ME. It ain’t even the USA, which Bain is accustomed to. It’s Australia. We have workplace regulations. You can vote “no” and there is f-all that Bain can do about it except bluff.

They could threaten to make you all redundant (with the associated payouts) and outsource all the pilot jobs (re-employing most of you), but there are rules against that too. Not just industrial ones, do you think CASA would rubber stamp an outsourced mob in time to catch the Christmas rush if you vote “no”? Remember Bain are here for the short term, and “bluff” is all they have going for them. On your side is the Australian rules.

It really saddens me how many of you are falling for this bluff. I also wish Sunfish would STFU. I look forward to hearing how AFAP and VIPA are responding to this bluff, and their recommendations to members.

Industrially speaking, if you really feel that you MUST give a salary discount to your employer, simply negotiate an EBA variation of a “temporary discount” to the hourly rate, which will expire once a trigger is met (eg a certain level of domestic travel, based on external figures they can’t manipulate). Once that trigger is met, back to EBA, no re-negotiations required.

Last edited by Derfred; 28th Sep 2020 at 17:39.
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 21:45
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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Derfred, Bains former CEO Mitt Romney is a US Senator and former Republican Presidential candidate wannabe. He holds one of the Two votes necessary to confirm Trumps choice for replacement of RBG on the Supreme Court. You have no idea of the political and commercial power of Bain.

If you decide to stand on your rights and Australia’s laws, you will find out like the ‘89ers found out, that politics will remove those rights very quickly, especially as we are in a pandemic.

All Bain has to do is talk to the New York markets that are funding Australia’s current account deficit and threaten for our funding costs to increase maybe 0.1%. If that happens, the Treasurer will literally run to Morrison’s office and instruct him to deal with the recalcitrant pilots or watch Australia head into a monstrous financial depression.

We are kept afloat by Wall Street and Bain has more influence there than we do.

‘’To put that another way, watch Virgin pilots stand up for their rights - watch Wall Street short the Aussie dollar - watch Australian interest rates double over night.
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 22:22
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Derfred, Bains former CEO Mitt Romney is a US Senator and former Republican Presidential candidate wannabe. He holds one of the Two votes necessary to confirm Trumps choice for replacement of RBG on the Supreme Court. You have no idea of the political and commercial power of Bain.

If you decide to stand on your rights and Australia’s laws, you will find out like the ‘89ers found out, that politics will remove those rights very quickly, especially as we are in a pandemic.

All Bain has to do is talk to the New York markets that are funding Australia’s current account deficit and threaten for our funding costs to increase maybe 0.1%. If that happens, the Treasurer will literally run to Morrison’s office and instruct him to deal with the recalcitrant pilots or watch Australia head into a monstrous financial depression.

We are kept afloat by Wall Street and Bain has more influence there than we do.

‘’To put that another way, watch Virgin pilots stand up for their rights - watch Wall Street short the Aussie dollar - watch Australian interest rates double over night.
So you’re saying the US government will destroy the entire Australian economy over a tiny little airline? May as well launch the nukes at Russia and get it over with while they’re at it. The US has much bigger fish to fry than V3 pilots wanting to maintain their modest salaries.

Free to have opinions Sunny, but make them feasible.

And stop dragging up 89 for gods sake, Bob Hawke is dead, the RAAF is not going to be used to break the strike, and the endless flow of foreign pilots isn’t coming.

Your warning is noted...thank you.
gordonfvckingramsay is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2020, 22:30
  #228 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
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‘’To put that another way, watch Virgin pilots stand up for their rights - watch Wall Street short the Aussie dollar - watch Australian interest rates double over night.[/QUOTE]


If you believe that you can believe anything. What a load of rubbish. Goodness
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 23:04
  #229 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
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the Competition and Consumer Act, or any other number of applicable legislation (which they haven't), then a company going into administration doesn't make them personally liable as directors, CEOs, Chair or board members. It's that simple.
They were trading insolvent.
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 23:16
  #230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Originally Posted by non_state_actor View Post
They were trading insolvent.
And it sounds like Bain are planning to trade in the same state.
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 23:19
  #231 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post
Derfred, Bains former CEO Mitt Romney is a US Senator and former Republican Presidential candidate wannabe. He holds one of the Two votes necessary to confirm Trumps choice for replacement of RBG on the Supreme Court. You have no idea of the political and commercial power of Bain.

If you decide to stand on your rights and Australia’s laws, you will find out like the ‘89ers found out, that politics will remove those rights very quickly, especially as we are in a pandemic.

All Bain has to do is talk to the New York markets that are funding Australia’s current account deficit and threaten for our funding costs to increase maybe 0.1%. If that happens, the Treasurer will literally run to Morrison’s office and instruct him to deal with the recalcitrant pilots or watch Australia head into a monstrous financial depression.

We are kept afloat by Wall Street and Bain has more influence there than we do.

‘’To put that another way, watch Virgin pilots stand up for their rights - watch Wall Street short the Aussie dollar - watch Australian interest rates double over night.
Wow. The purpose of the US Supreme Court is to ensure justice and make sure that every department of the US government recognised the limits of its own power.

I would suggest that doesn’t include sinking an entire allied country because some pilots wanted a lesser haircut than first offered.
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 23:39
  #232 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Bain have sunk $145 million in the first 2 months to keep Virgin 3.0 afloat and need to pump more money in. This is with government subsidized runs and jobkeeper.

Going to be difficult to generate revenue with no one to fly their planes.
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Old 28th Sep 2020, 23:59
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wf747 View Post
Going to be difficult to generate revenue with no one to fly their planes.
And therein lies the parallel to the dispute of 89
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 01:05
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Shame QF/JQ are running at 100% ops and couldn't pick up the slack if V3.0 wasn't able to operate.

Oh hold on....

Just as well there's no pool of ex Tiger/ex Expat et al pilots to hanging around wondering if they'll ever fly again.

Oh hold on....

I seriously hope the V3.0 pilots can minimise their T&C loss, you'll have to lose something as Bain/V3.0 management will expect/demand to see reductions over all areas of the operation.

Be realistic about the present environment and best of luck!
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 01:26
  #235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
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And therein lies the parallel to the dispute of 89
Correct, because that is exactly the bargaining power they thought they had when they resigned. the reality is, particularly at this time in aviation history, that Bain will be spoiled for choice when it comes to applicants.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 01:54
  #236 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
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FWIW, i think that if you even try and play hardball, you're on a hiding to nothing!

As a previous poster said and I can't be bothered looking for the quote, but there is a a big freight train called reality coming to a station near all of us soon!

I'm in no way justifying it, but take a look around. The industry is only being propped up by government assistance globally!

Epidemiologists are saying that realistically we (the global community) will be lucky to see an actual effective vaccine by the middle of 2021 at the earliest! That's even if there is indeed a vaccine that works. What happens if the virus mutates and the new strain is resilient to any vaccine?

The industry is in unheralded times and the demand for flying will be weak for the foreseeable outlook period IMHO!

It's the perfect storm unfortunately.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 02:14
  #237 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Originally Posted by wf747 View Post
Bain have sunk $145 million in the first 2 months to keep Virgin 3.0 afloat and need to pump more money in. This is with government subsidized runs and jobkeeper.

Going to be difficult to generate revenue with no one to fly their planes.

May be difficult to pay your mortgage and car payments, school fees etc without a job too...the airline world is not just tiny Australia.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 05:05
  #238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
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And the Federal Government would never step in to help to companies against the union! Oh wait...

if you can’t remember 1989, have a listen to what the government said yesterday about Patrick’s current stoush with the MUA and it’s protected IA, how the militant union is holding Australians to ransom in these unprecedented times, with a COVID recession, thousands of people unemployed and all the MUA can think of is adding more money to their average salaries of $170K.
And then apply that to VA’s case. The cheek of those pilots, wanting their exorbitant salaries when others are unemployed (insert unprecedented times, COVID recession etc etc), and all Bain - the messiah, the hero- want to do is to create more jobs, save the tourism industry etc etc. Those selfish pilots...
Don’t worry about Wall St, the Federal Government will step straight in to force the hands of the pilot group.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 05:36
  #239 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
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This thread has lost the plot.
Unless you have seen what Bain have offered in it’s entirety to the pilot group you are the clueless. Opinions based on what facts?
Pilots within the company are very aware of “Reality” as you keep putting it. We have seen the total group numbers of pilots go from 1500 odd to 800. We are living and breathing this unlike some of the posters on here. The amount of conversations I’ve had checking in on people to make sure they are ok (most are not) is incredible. The vile that is being displayed here is rather poor. If all you can preach is Doom and Gloom than maybe go find a suitable religion instead to continue to spout the current bullsh*t that some on here seem to revel in.
The whole industry is in turmoil.
What VAA pilots accept eventually will determine aviation for years to come in regards to pay and working conditions not just for themselves but the industry as a whole. AJ has already said what VAA do, Qantas will do to remain competitive.
The pilot group is asking for time and to be treated fairly in negotiations. We have already as a group have taken a beating a little courtesy along the way would be appreciated.
Thank god for the the union representatives we have are working in our best interest and have been tireless though this complex and difficult time. Glad it’s them and not a few of the posters on here that seem to think we should behave like a beaten dog.
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Old 29th Sep 2020, 06:00
  #240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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I've seen the Bain proposal and it's a turd of a joke to be sure. So on the assumption it's voted down with a resounding NO, where do they go from there ? Until there is a new agreement the current conditions stand. No doubt there will be some sort of threat in the works, but it's strange the agreement that Bain proposes makes it obvious that no jobs will be saved (Low overtime threshold) thus not even the guys at the bottom of the seniority list want to consider voting it up. 46 have taken early retirement and at least one senior check captain has gone to get Rex's 737 project off the ground. If they start another entity(AOC) to do some of flying on lower aircrew conditions then Virgin is right back to the mess they started years ago (Pacblue, V Aus, VAI, VAA, Tiger, VARA etc.)
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