Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Bureaucracy reigns

Old 22nd Aug 2020, 07:55
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Bureaucracy reigns

In these odd times I read of the occasional light GA aircraft making an approach to Gatwick and Heathrow. No other traffic.
Not in Australia it seems!
A Beech Duchess on instrument training yesterday in the Sydney area, asked for an ILS into Sydney. No other traffic, anywhere.
On receiving a blank ATC refusal, he asked why. “ Because it’s in the CASA rule book”
Perhaps the UK CAA. not so bad after all.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 08:18
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Except its not in the CASA rulebook......

....sounds more like they just couldn’t be bothered.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 08:32
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Thats odd. I've landed a C172 into YSSY on about 10 different occasions, in the middle of the day. They always bent over backwards to make it work.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 08:38
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I planned to do an ILS at Essendon several weeks ago (during lockdown - and I was operating from regional Vic), ATC asked if I had an airwork booking as the ‘flow controller’ had advised the centre controller I didn’t appear to have one - which I didn’t. And whilst that was my omission - I was literally the only aircraft in the sky overhead Melbourne at that time 🙄

Sounds like a firm grip of the non essentials....
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 08:41
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It's not called Air Traffic Control for nuthin'
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 08:52
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And one Air NZ flight on their way back from LAX recently I hear received a datalink message asking if there was anything the controller could do for them. They were the only aircraft in NZ's oceanic airspace...

Odd times.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 10:38
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Originally Posted by hawk_eye View Post
I planned to do an ILS at Essendon several weeks ago (during lockdown - and I was operating from regional Vic), ATC asked if I had an airwork booking as the ‘flow controller’ had advised the centre controller I didn’t appear to have one - which I didn’t. And whilst that was my omission - I was literally the only aircraft in the sky overhead Melbourne at that time 🙄

Sounds like a firm grip of the non essentials....
I wouldn’t be surprised if this had more to do with their billing system than flow control. How much do they charge for a practice ILS these days? Used to be around $75 if I remember correctly.
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 10:40
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What a difference In attitude here!!
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Old 22nd Aug 2020, 12:25
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should of asked for a visual approach from 10 miles!.....the fact that you nailed the centreline and 3 degree glide path is beside the point, it was just good airmanship that you had 109.5 on your Nav radio😉.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 06:21
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One of our ground handlers (who is a PPL) told me of friend of his landed at YSSY in a 172 a couple of months ago and taxied around and left again.

Maybe your Duchess didn't have the right PPR (although as you say, with it so quiet there's a questions as to why he'd need it)....

It's scary out there. Early evening yesterday, I got direct to SOSIJ from 140nm out, "any speed you like".
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 09:51
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Plenty of GA flights into YMML under the stage 2 and 3 lockdown phase. C-172 SR-20’s PA31’s PA28’s etc.
All landed got a tour around, some photos and left....
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 12:58
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Originally Posted by cessnapete View Post
In these odd times I read of the occasional light GA aircraft making an approach to Gatwick and Heathrow. No other traffic.
Not in Australia it seems!
A Beech Duchess on instrument training yesterday in the Sydney area, asked for an ILS into Sydney. No other traffic, anywhere.
On receiving a blank ATC refusal, he asked why. “ Because it’s in the CASA rule book”
Perhaps the UK CAA. not so bad after all.
From AIP ERSA YSSY
TRAINING FLIGHTS
11.1 Training is not permitted at SY except as set out in the following paragraphs.
11.2 At any time, ARR Scheduled ACFT may be permitted to carry out a PILS or LOC APCH at the conclusion of each leg of flights to SY, provided that the pilot in command has stated that the APCH is RQ for licence renewal purposes; or the ACFT lands straight ahead and does not use a RWY other than the RWY currently in use, merely for the purpose of carrying out the practice.
11.3 All training is at the discretion of ATC as TFC and workload permit.
11.4 ILS training is also AVBL at RI. See separate entry for conditions.
11.5 Flying Operations Inspector test and check flights are permitted on any of the aids in the SY Terminal Area, subject to appropriate warning and ATC TFC handling capacity.
11.6 No helicopter training is permitted to or from the heliport.
11.7 Airline companies may carry out ACFT checking and testing flights, other than under asymmetric COND, but these will be limited to 2 circuits by any company in one day.
11.8 MIL ACFT on PILS or LOC APCH must intercept the LOC at or ABV 3,000FT.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 20:21
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11.6 No helicopter training is permitted to or from the heliport.
Makes it hard for a student to gain experience flying in and out of major airports. Back in the early 90s I ran a school based at KSA, and even had solo students flying from there. But no second runway at that stage.
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 21:03
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Missy

“As traffic and workload permits” There wasn’t any of either!
Still it’s comforting to know from past experience that Syd ATC hasn’t changed in 30 years!!
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Old 23rd Aug 2020, 22:53
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As an amusing aside, back in the late 70's an international student from an academy north of Sydney flew solo down to KSA in his Cherokee, landed and taxied around to the threshold of runway 16 (there wasn't a 16L).

Upon lining up for his return to the north, he was instructed to "Turn right heading 190, I say again, right heading 190. Clear for Takeoff".

So he did. He turned right heading 190 and took off……..past the t-vasis boxes and across in front of the International terminal.
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Old 24th Aug 2020, 00:31
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Still it’s comforting to know from past experience that Syd ATC hasn’t changed in 30 years!!

Back in the late 60s/early 70s it was rarely a problem to drop into SYD for a jolly. Obviously one routinely avoided peak hour but, even then, a phone call ahead generally found a gap which worked for everyone. Have a few slides in the archives taken from lighties while so operating. Everything was simpler back then, I guess ....
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Old 24th Aug 2020, 02:39
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YEP! In the 'late 60's' whilst working for a mob 'north of SY', we would 'drop in' to SY every morning, Mon - Fri, on Navexs, usually in a '172'..
We did have a procedure to hasten our arrival and help to keep the 'bigger boys' moving.
A little bit of the then 'airmanship' and courtesy worked wonders..

Dems were de days......

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Old 24th Aug 2020, 03:23
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As an instructor at the Royal Aero Club of NSW at Bankstown in the late 70's my mature age student wanted to do a 'nav-ex' from Bankstown to Mascot as he was leaving on a Qantas flight to the USA that day.
We landed Sydney 16, taxied up to the old International terminal, shut down next to his 747 that was going to be taking him to the USA, customs officers met him and escorted him up through the bowels of the International terminal and I started up and flew back to Bankstown.
All in a days work at the 'Royal'.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 03:42
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Originally Posted by missy View Post
From AIP ERSA YSSY
TRAINING FLIGHTS
11.1 Training is not permitted at SY except as set out in the following paragraphs.
11.2 At any time, ARR Scheduled ACFT may be permitted to carry out a PILS or LOC APCH at the conclusion of each leg of flights to SY, provided that the pilot in command has stated that the APCH is RQ for licence renewal purposes; or the ACFT lands straight ahead and does not use a RWY other than the RWY currently in use, merely for the purpose of carrying out the practice.
11.3 All training is at the discretion of ATC as TFC and workload permit.
11.4 ILS training is also AVBL at RI. See separate entry for conditions.
11.5 Flying Operations Inspector test and check flights are permitted on any of the aids in the SY Terminal Area, subject to appropriate warning and ATC TFC handling capacity.
11.6 No helicopter training is permitted to or from the heliport.
11.7 Airline companies may carry out ACFT checking and testing flights, other than under asymmetric COND, but these will be limited to 2 circuits by any company in one day.
11.8 MIL ACFT on PILS or LOC APCH must intercept the LOC at or ABV 3,000FT.
missy
As a controller for 43 years, I find that the most embarrassing sub-para you could have highlighted as the reason under the current traffic conditions.
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Old 25th Aug 2020, 03:49
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In fairness to ATC, maybe the number of controllers ‘on duty’ has been reduced commensurate with the reduced traffic conditions?

If the same number of people are sitting at consoles and microphones as would be the case for normal traffic densities in and out of YSSY, then yes: It would be a cop out by a lazy ‘service’ provider.
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