Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Covid Air NZ

Old 14th Oct 2020, 20:18
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
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Originally Posted by NzAkL20 View Post
A great win for legacy crew and yet the forun cleansing contract regime are now making over half of the most junior legacy crew ( only 204 crew left with over 25 years service will remain) take redundancy payment or take nothing and get recalled, effectively buying your job back but on sub par contract. Crew have offered LWOP plus a plethora of alternatives only to be told no . Buy your way back. This is the new way of Carrie and forum regime . Watch out we pilots are next. It's despicable .
If/When they’re recalled is it on a different contract?

Pilots negotiated furlough where you could retain your service benefits in lieu of a redundancy payment... effectively LWOP with a few key differences. For junior Pilots, Redundancy payout may have been the better option, but after a few years of service, retention of the service benefits and pay step on recall was likely more valuable if you were not reliant on the redundancy payment.

I assume, the key difference between Pilots and CC here in that Pilots are recalled based on Seniority regardless of their decision to take furlough or redundancy. Are CC only being offered recall if they decline a redundancy payment?

As we lose more and more exec’s, I wonder if we’re heading toward state ownership... if we’re not, as Carries portfolio grows, she’s going to destroy this Airline more than COVID has. Her vindictive and confrontational attitude toward staff is the absolute last thing anyone will want to deal with at a time like this.

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Old 15th Oct 2020, 09:31
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
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I'd say we are certainly heading toward state ownership. Let's see what happens on the other side of the election.
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Old 15th Oct 2020, 10:52
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Whats this I hear about Foran leaving?

He made it clear in the zoom vids state control would be the very worst outcome from his point of view.
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Old 15th Oct 2020, 20:41
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by waren9 View Post
Whats this I hear about Foran leaving?

He made it clear in the zoom vids state control would be the very worst outcome from his point of view.
Haven’t heard that rumour yet. A lot of talk that he’s “done what he was brought in to do”, and that the 70% Airline was always the goal... COVID just gave the cover to do it.

State ownership, be it 100% or a larger stake similar to 2001 wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing given the current climate. Shareholders will take a hit of course (myself included) but they’ll recover in time.
State run however would see a lot of changes. With popular politics, we could see a return of loss making regional routes and very little appetite for future international expansion post COVID.

In saying that however, while I suspect we might not see a return of the 777’s, I doubt they’ll (Intentionally) shrink the International fleet anymore.

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Old 17th Oct 2020, 01:25
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho View Post
Haven’t heard that rumour yet. A lot of talk that he’s “done what he was brought in to do”, and that the 70% Airline was always the goal... COVID just gave the cover to do it.

State ownership, be it 100% or a larger stake similar to 2001 wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing given the current climate. Shareholders will take a hit of course (myself included) but they’ll recover in time.
State run however would see a lot of changes. With popular politics, we could see a return of loss making regional routes and very little appetite for future international expansion post COVID.

In saying that however, while I suspect we might not see a return of the 777’s, I doubt they’ll (Intentionally) shrink the International fleet anymore.
The government, via multiple agencies, already contribute a sizable proportion of domestic business; I would estimate 50% of all Wellington inbound morning flights are government-related business (DHB staff to the Ministry of Health, Oranga Tamariki Staff to HQ, etc, etc.), plus staff from HQ's going the opposite way.
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Old 17th Oct 2020, 10:17
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho View Post
.... as Carries portfolio grows, she’s going to destroy this Airline more than COVID has. Her vindictive and confrontational attitude toward staff is the absolute last thing anyone will want to deal with at a time like this.
She has form in these areas. Good luck guys and girls. Also just because it's in the contract it doesn't mean she will honour (or in her case honor) it.
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Old 17th Oct 2020, 10:31
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
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Originally Posted by 27/09 View Post
She has form in these areas. Good luck guys and girls. Also just because it's in the contract it doesn't mean she will honour (or in her case honor) it.
Correct. And as the rumour continues to grow. Goodbye to those on furlough/redundancy re-hire clauses as she is working to severe all financial liability. I understand from a reasonably reliable sauce that there is potential legal challenge about to front the unions about this.
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Old 17th Oct 2020, 19:18
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by InZed View Post
Correct. And as the rumour continues to grow. Goodbye to those on furlough/redundancy re-hire clauses as she is working to severe all financial liability. I understand from a reasonably reliable sauce that there is potential legal challenge about to front the unions about this.
If true, that would be a massive own goal for the company when they’re desperately trying to preserve cash.
Most Pilots took furlough. If the company attempts to sever them, they’ll all be owed redundancy payments... not to mention the costs associated with the legal battle.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 01:13
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by InZed View Post
Correct. And as the rumour continues to grow. Goodbye to those on furlough/redundancy re-hire clauses as she is working to severe all financial liability. I understand from a reasonably reliable sauce that there is potential legal challenge about to front the unions about this.
Seems odd, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. She will lose the entire pilot group I reckon with any attempt to stiff the furloughed/redundant guys. There has been a lot of bending over backwards lately.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 08:25
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Make me wonder if those on furlough should perhaps change over and take the redundancy and lock in the cash....
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 08:30
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
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Originally Posted by InZed View Post
Correct. And as the rumour continues to grow. Goodbye to those on furlough/redundancy re-hire clauses as she is working to severe all financial liability. I understand from a reasonably reliable sauce that there is potential legal challenge about to front the unions about this.
I think your sauce is better spread over a sausage bro...
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 08:45
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Slezy9 View Post
Make me wonder if those on furlough should perhaps change over and take the redundancy and lock in the cash....
Cash aside, I’d prefer to remain employed without pay then to be made redundant with a yet-to-be proven, recall agreement.
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 03:45
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 2bigmellons View Post
Cash aside, I’d prefer to remain employed without pay then to be made redundant with a yet-to-be proven, recall agreement.
Definitely a month of changes. Removal of IP thresholds, talk of the AFFA removal all together, and removal of furloughed pilots on the list.

I wonder if Carrie has anything to do with all of this...
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 04:56
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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The AFFA was always due to expire. It was self renewing every 3 rosters to a maximum of 9 and would require another ratification ballot to extend any further... many of us pointed out in the early days that the 60IP trigger being tied to the AFFA was pointless as re-hiring was extremely unlikely occur during it's validity, but that's probably why the company agreed to it. From memory, it expires in January and the cost savings have already been accounted for until that point. So we're not terminating it early, just wont be extending it.

I had previously thought we would vote to extend it, however as Pilots down-trained to a lower paid position (i.e. most of us) are exempted from the Paycut, I believe the savings just aren't there anymore. Even more so now with the removal of all 777 Positions from the Notional List.

If we can't keep the 60 IP trigger post AFFA, then ideally we can get the company to agree on some trigger for re-hiring. As has been pointed out on the ALPA forums, IP is always cheaper per hour than hiring more Pilots, it's only F&D limitations (and fatigue reports) that can cause the company issues when the hours are up. 777 Pilots were constantly bouncing off 100/28 limits last year flying ~90hr rosters.

Honestly, and I might be proven wrong, I strongly believe any talk of Furloughed Pilots being removed from the list is just that... talk. The CC have been getting a rather raw deal from the Company lately (partly due to the failings of their Unions) and it's entirely possibly Chinese whispers have that extending to Pilots.
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 21:34
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
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Originally Posted by ElZilcho View Post
Honestly, and I might be proven wrong, I strongly believe any talk of Furloughed Pilots being removed from the list is just that... talk. The CC have been getting a rather raw deal from the Company lately (partly due to the failings of their Unions) and it's entirely possibly Chinese whispers have that extending to Pilots.
It's absolutely nothing more than talk and mixing together what is happening with another part of the business. For pilots, furlough is a part of your collective agreement. To that degree, it's as iron clad as any other part of your contract. The Cabin Crew union and the company couldn't agree on things so their furlough exists OUTSIDE of their collective agreement. Despite the union not being for it, cabin crew still signed up en masse. It is still a signed agreement so they company can't reneg in the absence of exit clauses however, I suspect the confusion on this topic exists from the next (possible) round of cabin crew redundancies and the company not wanting to offer furlough unless certain things are agreed to (the compulsion to offer it of course not existing because, as mentioned, it's not in the contract!).
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 09:28
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
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Originally Posted by here_we_go_again View Post
It's absolutely nothing more than talk and mixing together what is happening with another part of the business. For pilots, furlough is a part of your collective agreement. To that degree, it's as iron clad as any other part of your contract. The Cabin Crew union and the company couldn't agree on things so their furlough exists OUTSIDE of their collective agreement. Despite the union not being for it, cabin crew still signed up en masse. It is still a signed agreement so they company can't reneg in the absence of exit clauses however, I suspect the confusion on this topic exists from the next (possible) round of cabin crew redundancies and the company not wanting to offer furlough unless certain things are agreed to (the compulsion to offer it of course not existing because, as mentioned, it's not in the contract!).
Interesting theory! It will be interesting to revisit these conversations in five years when they haven’t returned a single furloughed pilot back to work, and the rest of us are blowing 90Hr months.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 20:13
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by InZed View Post
Interesting theory! It will be interesting to revisit these conversations in five years when they haven’t returned a single furloughed pilot back to work, and the rest of us are blowing 90Hr months.
My deepest sympathies to our redundant colleagues, but yes, as per the CEA and agreed Variations that could happen. When the AFFA expires, if ALPA are not able to negotiate a contractual IP trigger to re-hire then the company will be free to flog us on max IP without recalling anyone.

However...

Correct. And as the rumour continues to grow. Goodbye to those on furlough/redundancy re-hire clauses as she is working to severe all financial liability. I understand from a reasonably reliable sauce that there is potential legal challenge about to front the unions about this.
The Redundant and Furloughed Pilots, as per the CEA, all have 10 year rights to re-employment in order of Seniority before the Company can hire Pilots from anywhere else. The loss of the 60 IP trigger will be a blow to them for sure, as it'll delay their return, but they still retain their seniority based re-employment rights for 10 years. Only 60 IP is tied to the AFFA, so a legal challenge to breach the CEA and cut all ties early just doesn't make sense to me.
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