Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

Covid Air NZ

Old 15th Aug 2020, 10:32
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....04.20053058v1

one of dozens of studies showing that the greatest transmission of the virus happens in the home. Also staying indoors and reduced exercise and vitamin D is detrimental to your health..medicine 101

LOCKDOWNS DON’T WORK
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Old 15th Aug 2020, 10:37
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3181

“transmission in the home is thought to account for roughly 70% of ALL cases”
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Old 16th Aug 2020, 01:09
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mattyj View Post
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....04.20053058v1

one of dozens of studies showing that the greatest transmission of the virus happens in the home.
It’s important to put a space...
Also staying indoors and reduced exercise and vitamin D is detrimental to your health..medicine 101
...in between...
LOCKDOWNS DON’T WORK
...all these statements....
...transmission in the home is thought to account for roughly 70% of ALL cases.
because while they may stand alone, some of them aren’t proven, and nor is the link....
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Old 16th Aug 2020, 01:54
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mattyj View Post

“transmission in the home is thought to account for roughly 70% of ALL cases”
Grabbing more information:

"Current test and trace policies have mainly focused on preventing spread in care homes, hospitals, and in the community. However, contact within households is thought to be responsible for roughly 70% of SARS-CoV-2 transmission when widespread community control measures are in place. In Wuhan, the reproduction number (R) dropped from 3.54 to 1.18 after lockdown and cordon sanitaire. But the epidemic was only brought under complete control when Fangcang (field) hospitals were introduced to isolate cases outside the home, with R dropping to 0.51 after two weeks."

What the reporting actually says is lock downs more than halved the spread however further (and significant) reduction in cases could be achieved by reducing transmission within households. Most in New Zealand will be aware new cases are now being moved to managed isolation where these necessary controls can be enacted.

Don't get me wrong, I personally lean towards the side of the fence that we are jumping at shadows but lets not start misrepresenting what authors have said. Also, your first link isn't (as yet) peer reviewed which is important to note.
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Old 18th Aug 2020, 06:38
  #25 (permalink)  
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On the 6pm News just now, experts, including epidemiologists are confused by aircrew exemptions.
Well I guess with the MOH knowing better, they are guilty of conspiracy claims according to the people on here.
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Old 18th Aug 2020, 08:09
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Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
On the 6pm News just now, experts, including epidemiologists are confused by aircrew exemptions.
Well I guess with the MOH knowing better, they are guilty of conspiracy claims according to the people on here.
The Company (DM) sent out a long email with attachments full of exactly how we meet MOH guidelines.
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Old 18th Aug 2020, 11:56
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Election time. There's going to be emails and attachments up the waazoo until beyond.
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Old 18th Aug 2020, 19:51
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Air NZ’s life is about to get very hard with new rules likely around isolation of international crew with testing. The Government has been embarrassed about airline crew testing and will react.
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Old 18th Aug 2020, 20:00
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So assume those international airlines operating into NZ would have to comply as well. I can see some problems there.
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Old 18th Aug 2020, 21:17
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
Air NZ’s life is about to get very hard with new rules likely around isolation of international crew with testing. The Government has been embarrassed about airline crew testing and will react.
International Aircrew are getting tested up to 4 times a month (if not more) depending on how much they're working.... compare this to Border and Isolation facility staff, some of who haven't been tested at all.

The media is on a witch hunt and crew are the scapegoat. Partly, no doubt, due to the Bluff wedding cluster which caught everyone off guard at the start of the pandemic, but also because it's Air NZ and we're no stranger to certain media outlets and their constant wind ups. Even the experts (academics) can't agree with each other, not specifically here, but globally. Every media major outlet in the world has been able to find themselves an expert willing to push their particular narrative... be it Herd Immunity, Lockdowns work/don't work, use of hydroxychloroquine etc etc
The previous experts (so I'm told) decided on a 48hr isolation for NZ based Crew on the basis that our movements were so heavily controlled while on a TOD, along with the required use of PPE and private transport, unlike arriving citizens whose movements are less known prior to arrival.
The new experts seem to disagree with this, and as the Media's decided to run with it, no doubt we'll get another change which will be complied with. If it's a 14 day isolation, this will heavily impact the viability of international operations and the Government may need to re-evaluate their freight options.

Honestly, at the moment, I have more chance of catching COVID at my local supermarket than I do in HKG, LA or anywhere else because everything is so tightly controlled. When's the last time anyone here actually operated internationally? Particularly to China/HKG?

The point is, as Cliche' as it is to say, there is no manual for COVID. The NZ Government, along with Airlines, are constantly evaluating and modifying procedures based on new advise/evidence... as they should. As Crew, we'll continue to comply or remove ourselves from duty if required. (In the beginning, PVG was basically a squaller detention centre so many crew refused to operate while some foreign carriers staged their PVG freight through HKG).

There are some who will condemn Air NZ everytime an expert says we could be doing better. Again, that's usual round here... plenty with chips on their shoulders, usually stemming from a failed interview 20 years ago and they can't let it go. QF seems to get the same vitriol from time to time. People just need to let it go. Specifically COVID, Air NZ are trying to keep the doors open and have been working with the MOH and Government (our majority shareholder) to do just that. That seems to be a source of angst for some. Perhaps they've lost their jobs and wont be happy until the rest of us have as well.

Originally Posted by billyt View Post
So assume those international airlines operating into NZ would have to comply as well. I can see some problems there.
The MOH procedures for Aircrew are separated into 2 categories. NZ based Crew returning from overseas and foreign crew laying over in NZ.
It's all here:

​​​​​​​https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/...r#requirements
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Old 19th Aug 2020, 01:16
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The government may need to provide some air-side accommodation for isolation of aircrew. Non-AirNZ crew would go there for their layovers, AirNZ crew would stay there during a rostered period, then transition to land-side MIQ for 14 days at the end of their rostered period.
It would be grossly inconvenient and inefficient, but would significantly increase the perceived safety

The facility might actually be land-side but deemed to be air-side for this purpose, and managed separately as if it were land-side.
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Old 19th Aug 2020, 01:52
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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I am not saying Air NZ is not doing a good job, just that the media seems to have turned on aircrew and if there is one thing this Government does is react to public opinion. There will be new orders issued at some point in the next 48 hours with visible 'steps' to allow the government to show just how seriously they are taking this. I am not concerned about air nz crew at all, but I do have my doubts over the non NZ based crew who are staying in hotels with no infection protocols mixing with the public at check in and check out who are operating to a 'trust' model that they won't go out of their room. That is the gaping hole in the air crew procedure.
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Old 19th Aug 2020, 02:45
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kiwi grey View Post
The government may need to provide some air-side accommodation for isolation of aircrew. Non-AirNZ crew would go there for their layovers, AirNZ crew would stay there during a rostered period, then transition to land-side MIQ for 14 days at the end of their rostered period.
It would be grossly inconvenient and inefficient, but would significantly increase the perceived safety

The facility might actually be land-side but deemed to be air-side for this purpose, and managed separately as if it were land-side.
A 14 day Isolation for Crew would certainly appease the mob. It would also result in a large number of crew refusing to work... and legally, could Air NZ force them too? Are border staff isolated for 14 days after a shift?

I can't recall if Air NZ have explicitly said as much, but the message has certainly been clear that a 14 day isolation would result in International flying being non-viable. Cost of the Isolation facility is one factor, but the sheer number of Crew required to operate (and who agree to operate) would be absurd. It would require a lot of 787 type ratings purely to get through COVID. A standard 4 day TOD would turn into 18.

This is where the Government is stuck between a rock and a hard place. They actually want Air NZ to keep flying to keep the freight channels open... people can talk about NZ being "self sufficient" all they want, but it doesn't happen overnight. If the MOH make the operation non-viable, will the Government dig deeper into the coffers to cover the additional costs?

Already, we're seeing Media articles (they love to stir the pot) questioning if an employer (not specifically Air NZ) could force employees to be tested... so the same applies, can we be forced to isolate in a Government run facility for 14 days everytime we go to work?

What ever happened to flatting the curve? Things are going to get incredibly messier the longer we keep pursuing elimination.... unless we close the borders entirely (which isn't lega) COVID will always find a way back. For example:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...with-traveller

Originally Posted by Ollie Onion View Post
I am not saying Air NZ is not doing a good job, just that the media seems to have turned on aircrew and if there is one thing this Government does is react to public opinion. There will be new orders issued at some point in the next 48 hours with visible 'steps' to allow the government to show just how seriously they are taking this. I am not concerned about air nz crew at all, but I do have my doubts over the non NZ based crew who are staying in hotels with no infection protocols mixing with the public at check in and check out who are operating to a 'trust' model that they won't go out of their room. That is the gaping hole in the air crew procedure.
Sorry Ollie I wasn't implying that you were having a go. I quoted you to discuss your comment about the Government but drifted in order to respond to those with an axe to grind.

We're all waiting for the updated procedures which we know are coming. Every single time there's an article in the paper about Crew something changes so we're all too used to it.
Hope to see some changes for International Crew. It's ironic that MOH are so strict on NZ crew while we're away, yet so lax on other crews laying over... the same way they've dropped the ball with border staff and isolation facility staff.

Truth is though, as I've said above, it's unlikely we'll ever eliminate it "permanently". Maybe 100 days here and there with rolling lockdowns, but given how contagious it is, combined with how mild the symptoms can be for so many people, it's incredibly likely it'll find it's way back eventually. I'd say we'll see a shift towards suppression after the election.... regardless of who's in power, and then we might stop seeing the Media wind ups every time a case crops up here and there. Just my personal opinion of course, I'm not expert on the subject, but I feel we should of stayed in Level 2 after the first wave, and Auckland should be level 2 not 3 now. Even if a Vaccine were available tomorrow, COVID wont be going away overnight.
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 13:36
  #34 (permalink)  
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All domestic crew and pax now to wear masks
Pax seated with distancing
Flight Attendant transmission from LA found to be the cause of the Bluff wedding cluster. (airline not stated)

What was the mockery of rational risk analysis glasses anyone, and conspiracy theories along with how could anyone else outside the company possibly rationalize something needed to be done.
IN YOUR FACE.

Last edited by DeltaT; 3rd Sep 2020 at 13:47.
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Old 3rd Sep 2020, 21:56
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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!6 days Delta without posting on this thread. See if you can increase the the time before the next posting.

Everyone in NZ now have to wear masks when on public transport.
Now that the requirement for masks is mandatory there is really no necessity for airlines to require distancing. No other public transport have this requirement.
The fight attendant transmission happened right at the beginning of the awareness of of covid when almost no procedures worldwide were in place.



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Old 4th Sep 2020, 01:41
  #36 (permalink)  
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Historically some of the rules for everyone else didn't always apply to Air NZ.
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Old 4th Sep 2020, 05:07
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Originally Posted by billyt View Post
Now that the requirement for masks is mandatory there is really no necessity for airlines to require distancing. No other public transport have this requirement.
You obviously havent taken a bus lately
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 00:40
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
All domestic crew and pax now to wear masks
Pax seated with distancing
Flight Attendant transmission from LA found to be the cause of the Bluff wedding cluster. (airline not stated)

What was the mockery of rational risk analysis glasses anyone, and conspiracy theories along with how could anyone else outside the company possibly rationalize something needed to be done.
IN YOUR FACE.


Oops! This didn't age well did it Delta?
All on board to wear masks. Amazing what a reversal of WHO advice will do huh?
Pax seated with distancing - GONE already. As if the empty middle seat circa 80cm complied with with the "two metre rule", or even the "one metre rule". Window dressing for the public, like 9/11 security. Someone made a rational, fact-based analysis obviously....
FA transmission the cause of Bluff cluster. NO SH!T! You did know that already right? That's old news. Late March was it? (BEFORE any measures were in place). It was AirNZ, as stated at the time. Hardly a cover-up. Relevance to now? NONE.

Historically some of the rules for everyone else didn't always apply to Air NZ.
An example would be.....

It'd be better if you just were a little more honest with yourself about some glaring biases that you're carrying - I said be rational and I meant it....

#thedaysofcogentargurmentsaregone
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 01:18
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RubberDogPoop View Post
Oops! This didn't age well did it Delta?
All on board to wear masks. Amazing what a reversal of WHO advice will do huh?
Pax seated with distancing - GONE already. As if the empty middle seat circa 80cm complied with with the "two metre rule", or even the "one metre rule". Window dressing for the public, like 9/11 security. Someone made a rational, fact-based analysis obviously....
FA transmission the cause of Bluff cluster. NO SH!T! You did know that already right? That's old news. Late March was it? (BEFORE any measures were in place). It was AirNZ, as stated at the time. Hardly a cover-up. Relevance to now? NONE.


An example would be.....

It'd be better if you just were a little more honest with yourself about some glaring biases that you're carrying - I said be rational and I meant it....

#thedaysofcogentargurmentsaregone
Re. the 1 metre/ 2 metre / keep the middle seat empty stuff. The positive pressure within the aircraft was always seen as something that reduced risk of transmission (harder on short haul where the ratio of ground time, air con off to flight time, air con on will be greater). The distances in public are always going to be notional, as nobody in their right mind is going to do a randomised control trial to get an exact distance, plus the uncontrollable variables of wind, etc.

Let's just celebrate NZ's lack of deaths, a health service that hasn't been wrecked (in some countries over 10% of health staff have succumbed), and we have flights that can now be fully booked, at least providing more work and more revenue
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Old 18th Sep 2020, 07:53
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Originally Posted by Anti Skid On View Post
Let's just celebrate NZ's lack of deaths, a health service that hasn't been wrecked (in some countries over 10% of health staff have succumbed), and we have flights that can now be fully booked, at least providing more work and more revenue
Amen. I think the NZ response (aka Jacinda’s response) in a quickly changing environment with new information and recommendations constantly coming out has been world class.

Other countries want to be us. And I think Air NZ have played their cards correctly and fluctuated to meet the requirements and demands of the government, IATA, WHO, MOH, customers, shareholders and media...
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