Australia, New Zealand & the Pacific Airline and RPT Rumours & News in Australia, enZed and the Pacific

QLK Network Changes

Old 17th Jul 2020, 01:02
  #41 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Aimpoint
at least you've got light at the end of the tunnel, eventually.

And with respect to communication from management - would you rather they come out with a plan that is 70% certain, get everyone's hopes up and then have to advise everyone with a revised plan a week later because the situation is so fluid? Or do you want them to line up the ducks properly to either get the Classic back flying or work out a transition to the 400?
Is there light at the end of the tunnel though?? There certainly was light earlier when there were 'no plans for redundancies', the new network was apparently just a couple of weeks away from being finalised, and we were all on 2-week stand downs in anticipation of an imminent return to flying... but now? The tone has certainly shifted a little. And yes, there will always be pilot groups around the world who are in a worse situation than others, covid or not - but that doesn't justify the poor handling of the classic crews. "But hey, it could be worse" is terrible leadership in any organisation.

I can't speak for everyone, but personally I would rather we were given half an idea of what things could happen. Something like: "Details and timings are yet to be finalised, but we're mostly considering between [insert Plan A here] and [insert Plan B here] or anywhere in between. Some of the issues are x, y, z which we're working on. When we reach [% demand /target /milestone /date] we'll be in a position to lock it in and put the plan into action." Given the situation is so fluid as you say, will the 'ducks' ever be perfectly lined up? At some point, near enough has got to be good enough. With three different fleet sizes available, the company would have greater flexibility and opportunity to right size the sectors and maximise profits.

Communication can still be effective without having all of the information at hand. It just requires a certain level of honestly and openness, which I believe would in turn restore some of the trust, respect and morale that has been lost. ("Actively promote open and timely communication, even in challenging situations"). If it's communicated correctly, I don't think anyone would blame management for tweaking a plan in response to a changed situation - on the contrary, that's good decision making! Saying nothing except "we'll have more for you in a couple of weeks" and then repeatedly not delivering, is not good communication.

On a tangent, no one in their right mind should be willing to accept any future roles on the classic fleet when they see how dispensable they are.
tictac123 is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 01:28
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Fujiroll76
Where is AFAP in all of this?

The QLD borders are open! Having the 300’s stood down is now a commercial decision.

THERE IS USEFUL WORK - Absolutely ridiculous, make the call, either get rid of it and train the 300 crew onto the 400 or put it back online.

End of story
Where is AFAP indeed!!!!

I’ll put money on the fact that we see EAA Q400 pilots operating in Brissy before we see the Q300 back flying, after all - it’s cheaper than brining the sustaining fleet back.

Last edited by SDN Superstar; 20th Jul 2020 at 10:48.
SDN Superstar is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 01:39
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cans
Posts: 149
Received 35 Likes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Aimpoint
If you're still angry, chat to your AFAP reps about why the communication from them has been so poor and unprofessional over the last 4 months.
AFAP have been particularly quiet through all of this (and rightly so after the cluster of the EBA negotiation), the cairns ones haven't said much other than why are the BNE 400 doing so much. haven't heard anything from Russ on the 300 side
hillbillybob is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 01:45
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Sunshine state
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by tictac123
Is there light at the end of the tunnel though?? There certainly was light earlier when there were 'no plans for redundancies', the new network was apparently just a couple of weeks away from being finalised, and we were all on 2-week stand downs in anticipation of an imminent return to flying... but now? The tone has certainly shifted a little. And yes, there will always be pilot groups around the world who are in a worse situation than others, covid or not - but that doesn't justify the poor handling of the classic crews. "But hey, it could be worse" is terrible leadership in any organisation.

I can't speak for everyone, but personally I would rather we were given half an idea of what things could happen. Something like: "Details and timings are yet to be finalised, but we're mostly considering between [insert Plan A here] and [insert Plan B here] or anywhere in between. Some of the issues are x, y, z which we're working on. When we reach [% demand /target /milestone /date] we'll be in a position to lock it in and put the plan into action." Given the situation is so fluid as you say, will the 'ducks' ever be perfectly lined up? At some point, near enough has got to be good enough. With three different fleet sizes available, the company would have greater flexibility and opportunity to right size the sectors and maximise profits.

Communication can still be effective without having all of the information at hand. It just requires a certain level of honestly and openness, which I believe would in turn restore some of the trust, respect and morale that has been lost. ("Actively promote open and timely communication, even in challenging situations"). If it's communicated correctly, I don't think anyone would blame management for tweaking a plan in response to a changed situation - on the contrary, that's good decision making! Saying nothing except "we'll have more for you in a couple of weeks" and then repeatedly not delivering, is not good communication.

On a tangent, no one in their right mind should be willing to accept any future roles on the classic fleet when they see how dispensable they are.
Hear hear!

It sounds like the sustaining fleet won’t be returning till the 400’s are operating at their max capacity. Government exemptions for security isn’t helping the return to flying either.

In regards to AFAP, I’ve been told Eastern don’t even have any Q300 representation on the pilot council! All Q4 drivers. I would of thought the sunnies blokes could have a stronger voice though.
Cessnadriver123 is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 02:06
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by hillbillybob
AFAP have been particularly quiet through all of this (and rightly so after the cluster of the EBA negotiation), the cairns ones haven't said much other than why are the BNE 400 doing so much. haven't heard anything from Russ on the 300 side
They couldn’t even get the EBA through when both mainline EAs got up.

What do you expect them to do with a far more complex issue?!?

toothless tiger comes to mind!
SDN Superstar is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 02:30
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Getting there eventually
Posts: 36
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Cessnadriver123
In regards to AFAP, I’ve been told Eastern don’t even have any Q300 representation on the pilot council
You’ve been told correctly. I’ve tried to ask about it.

All of us, north or south, would just like to know for how much longer we’ll be ‘sustaining’ the 400 with our tax instead of our job.
Callsign Please is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 02:37
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 74
Posts: 1,381
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
What do you mean, "sustaining" the 400 with our TAX ???
Arnold E is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 03:06
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Callsign Please
All of us, north or south, would just like to know for how much longer we’ll be ‘sustaining’ the 400 with our tax instead of our job.
That comment and some of the above just shows how far out of touch some of you are with what's going on. Yes routes are still subsidised but many non-subsidisd are seeing a good increase in pax. But the fact is the 300 isn't suitable for most of the QLD routes, which is why it isn't being used. Not enough fuel/range and not enough seats. But hey, let's bring back a 300 do a Bundy return then sit there the rest of the day. That's not going to bleed money due to all the associated costs, is it? The 400 might be more expensive to operate on a short flight to Bundy or Hervey Bay, but efficiencies are gained when it also covers Mackay, Moranbah etc. in the same day.

This anti-400 vitriol is sad, you'll lose the support of your colleagues. Hope you hear a decision soon.
VH-FTS is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 03:45
  #49 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by VH-FTS
That comment and some of the above just shows how far out of touch some of you are with what's going on
I'm not sure if that's directed at me or not but I've got nothing against the 400 guys and gals. They're just doing their jobs, the same as we would if the situation was reversed. But we'd be less "out of touch" if there was better information flow!

Originally Posted by VH-FTS
But the fact is the 300 isn't suitable for most of the QLD routes, which is why it isn't being used. Not enough fuel/range and not enough seats. But hey, let's bring back a 300 do a Bundy return then sit there the rest of the day. That's not going to bleed money due to all the associated costs, is it? The 400 might be more expensive to operate on a short flight to Bundy or Hervey Bay, but efficiencies are gained when it also covers Mackay, Moranbah etc. in the same day.
So at what point would there be sufficient demand to stand up some BNE 300 crews... 2 return trips a day? 3? 5? Is there even a number in mind or is the company just blowing in the breeze? Or are the BNE 300 classic crews staying stood down until it's time for them to do 400 differences? At what point will that be?

And what about the 300 in SYD - surely there's useful work available there at the moment with sectors and loads more suited to the 300?

Yes people are getting frustrated, confused and anxious, but only due to the lack of comms.
tictac123 is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 03:46
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 791
Received 19 Likes on 12 Posts
Originally Posted by VH-FTS
That comment and some of the above just shows how far out of touch some of you are with what's going on. Yes routes are still subsidised but many non-subsidisd are seeing a good increase in pax. But the fact is the 300 isn't suitable for most of the QLD routes, which is why it isn't being used. Not enough fuel/range and not enough seats. But hey, let's bring back a 300 do a Bundy return then sit there the rest of the day. That's not going to bleed money due to all the associated costs, is it? The 400 might be more expensive to operate on a short flight to Bundy or Hervey Bay, but efficiencies are gained when it also covers Mackay, Moranbah etc. in the same day.

This anti-400 vitriol is sad, you'll lose the support of your colleagues. Hope you hear a decision soon.
Someone who gets it.

For the company to bring back one line of Q300 flying in BNE would require 5-6 sets of crew to be stood up. AM shift, PM shift, 2 on reserve and 1-2 on a Day off. By comparison to bring on an additional Q400 line of flying would potentially require no extra crew, they could just draw down on the current reserve list each day.

The company would also need to spend money getting crew current and the Q300 aircraft out of storage.

It doesn't make any commercial sense and at the moment that is the primary driver in any decision made about fleet utilisation.

It's not fair but there isn't a 400 pilot that I have spoken to who doesn't feel for the situation that the classic crew are in.
Going Nowhere is online now  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 04:00
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Getting there eventually
Posts: 36
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by VH-FTS
Hope you hear a decision soon.
We all do, this is the point.

Be assured neither I or anyone I know bear any grudge against any fleet or pilot. It's a great thing that demand is picking up, and there's no doubt that the playing field changes every day.
Nobody wants 100 pilots stood up for one flight a day, nor should we expect to be back to normal tomorrow, but it's hard to be confident when four weeks ago a solid plan was to be expected within two weeks. Just helping us understand where they want us to fit in that plan would go a very long way.
Callsign Please is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 04:04
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by VH-FTS
Not enough fuel/range and not enough seats. But hey, let's bring back a 300 do a Bundy return then sit there the rest of the day..

So that logic doesn’t work during a pandemic with low loads...

Your trying to say that there are not enough seats on a 50 seat plane when loads are single figures....
SDN Superstar is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 04:10
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 791
Received 19 Likes on 12 Posts
4 weeks ago, the company didn't know Victoria was going to happen either. That has put a massive spanner in the works. There's nothing to say that the QLD Governmnent won't place restrictions on additional areas in NSW as well.
Going Nowhere is online now  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 10:54
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Gladstone
Age: 47
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by hillbillybob
AFAP have been particularly quiet through all of this (and rightly so after the cluster of the EBA negotiation), the cairns ones haven't said much other than why are the BNE 400 doing so much. haven't heard anything from Russ on the 300 side
Russ has checked out mate. Already sorting out his premier suite at the holiday inn for his 400 checkie gig
Fujiroll76 is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 11:02
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 791
Received 19 Likes on 12 Posts
History shows that there are no guarantees that any C&T crew on the 300 will retain that on the 400.
Going Nowhere is online now  
Old 17th Jul 2020, 22:45
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Home
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Aimpoint
If you're still angry, chat to your AFAP reps about why the communication from them has been so poor and unprofessional over the last 4 months.
I'm not sure anyone is necessarily complaining about the lack of communication from AFAP... in fact they were the ones to confirm there would be no -300 redundancies when the company was silent on the matter.
"Ah crap... the pilots want better leadership and information... I know, let's blame the union!"
portalcarve is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2020, 02:08
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cans
Posts: 149
Received 35 Likes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Fujiroll76
Russ has checked out mate. Already sorting out his premier suite at the holiday inn for his 400 checkie gig
the 3 R's of the committee need a rocket at the best of times
hillbillybob is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2020, 02:49
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oz
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by hillbillybob
the 3 R's of the committee need a rocket at the best of times
Wow what an attitude. I think you will find the Chairman of the SS Council has done more for pilots in his long career than you ever will. The AFAP are struggling through this mess the best they can. Can you do any better?
DeafStar is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2020, 03:12
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Going Nowhere
History shows that there are no guarantees that any C&T crew on the 300 will retain that on the 400.
Which is why some members of the council probably have a conflict of interest in negotiating with the company.

Must be tough knowing that if you step out of line you might not continue to get your holiday in points when you move to the Q400.

Last edited by SDN Superstar; 18th Jul 2020 at 09:55.
SDN Superstar is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2020, 04:17
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Cans
Posts: 149
Received 35 Likes on 8 Posts
Originally Posted by DeafStar
Wow what an attitude. I think you will find the Chairman of the SS Council has done more for pilots in his long career than you ever will. The AFAP are struggling through this mess the best they can. Can you do any better?
It must be happening on deep background because there is very little information coming from the council of late.

Certainly if I have a career that is as long as the Chair I hope to achieve a lot for pilots but I hope to spread the wins more evenly, not doing this sort of thing (https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/561491-sunstate-pilot-s-reps-undercut-eastern-pilots-again.html#post8981531 as mentioned by rustytrombone)

Last edited by hillbillybob; 18th Jul 2020 at 04:40.
hillbillybob is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.