4 Corners 29 Jun 2020 Aviation
CEOs, boards, all upper level management are the same. Sycophants who often leave steaming piles of dog **** in their wake and move onto their next high paying project scot-free. Yet as a professional, if you act with the same level of incompetence as many of these high level managers, you’d lose your job and likely never work in your chosen industry again, Borghetti and Hardlicker case in point.
Ozbiggles, you can sit in the same corner with blackout. You have never attended a Board meeting.
How would you like to be told for example: “We have a letter of offer to sell X division to Y company, they would close the plant, sack one thousand employees and source product from China”. “What do you think?”. Discuss.
“Our operation is losing money, we have ten thousand employees. What should we do?” Discuss.
“Our major supplier has gone tits up. The managers were frauds. Their products are also toxic.” Discuss.
“we have an offer from X company to buy us. Should we sell?”.
”ABC company is for sale. Should we buy it and what would we do with it?”
“Some is shorting our shares. What do they know that we don’t?”
”Our new product is a public relations disaster and has killed four people. What do we do?”
”How do we tell the Government we have a major environmental problem on our hands at our mine site, cyanide has gotten into the tailings dam and it’s killing the birds. How’d we manage that?”
‘To put that another way, how would you like to be a Director of a company that just defaulted on 7 billion of debt? Compared to that I’d rather by flying in a thunderstorm.
How would you like to be told for example: “We have a letter of offer to sell X division to Y company, they would close the plant, sack one thousand employees and source product from China”. “What do you think?”. Discuss.
“Our operation is losing money, we have ten thousand employees. What should we do?” Discuss.
“Our major supplier has gone tits up. The managers were frauds. Their products are also toxic.” Discuss.
“we have an offer from X company to buy us. Should we sell?”.
”ABC company is for sale. Should we buy it and what would we do with it?”
“Some is shorting our shares. What do they know that we don’t?”
”Our new product is a public relations disaster and has killed four people. What do we do?”
”How do we tell the Government we have a major environmental problem on our hands at our mine site, cyanide has gotten into the tailings dam and it’s killing the birds. How’d we manage that?”
‘To put that another way, how would you like to be a Director of a company that just defaulted on 7 billion of debt? Compared to that I’d rather by flying in a thunderstorm.
This isn’t the first time 4 Corners has had a scrutinising look at the Rex group, in 2012 they produced an episode about the Pelair (owned by Rex) ditching off Norfolk Island and the subsequent disaster that was the CASA oversight of the company and the flawed ATSB investigation. It indirectly led to the departure of John McCormack from CASA. The video episode at the link below:
Crash Landing
John Sharp is featured in the episode, albeit briefly. They really don’t go into any possible collusion or influence that Sharp’s political connections may have exerted on CASA in that episode, but it is interesting to see how the company of the former National Party MP (who had to resign from the ministry over a travel rort scandal) has influence with the government in the aviation arena today in 2020.
Sunfish, NONE of the things that you have listed would make me want to fly through a thunderstorm as a preference. On top of that I think it is extremely unlikely that any board members from Virgin will be held to account
Last edited by Arnold E; 1st Jul 2020 at 04:21.
Thread Starter
Hi Sunfish, I enjoy most of your contributions but I think we will be miles apart on this subject.
I have made a few presentations that were then presented to the board by my then boss, that is as close as I got. I may not have been in the room but I knew what was going on in my area.
As for your list of questions, I hope I would be good enough to make the correct decision. I believe in the best for the most and sometimes that means you have to let people go for the greater good. I hope if I was in a position to make a decision and someone said boss we are responsible for this theN I would own it and seek to repair the damage caused. If the hypothetical board I was a part of sacked me for making the ‘right’ decision I would walk out with my head held high...and then sue the arse off them! After I got my hand out of course.
And nobody puts Ozbiggles in the corner...except his wife...a lot.
I have made a few presentations that were then presented to the board by my then boss, that is as close as I got. I may not have been in the room but I knew what was going on in my area.
As for your list of questions, I hope I would be good enough to make the correct decision. I believe in the best for the most and sometimes that means you have to let people go for the greater good. I hope if I was in a position to make a decision and someone said boss we are responsible for this theN I would own it and seek to repair the damage caused. If the hypothetical board I was a part of sacked me for making the ‘right’ decision I would walk out with my head held high...and then sue the arse off them! After I got my hand out of course.
And nobody puts Ozbiggles in the corner...except his wife...a lot.
Last edited by ozbiggles; 1st Jul 2020 at 02:57.
To put that another way, how would you like to be a Director of a company that just defaulted on 7 billion of debt? Compared to that I’d rather by flying in a thunderstorm.
To put that another way, how would you like to be a Director of a company that just defaulted on 7 billion of debt? Compared to that I’d rather by flying in a thunderstorm.
. While what you say about being on a board is true the real difference between board decision making and flying decision making that there is no real pressure on board decisions. They are always rested and refreshed. Business Class Travel. VIP Lounge Membership. There's always a platter of sandwiches available. Still or sparkling. The room is quiet and air conditioned. The table mahogany. There is lots of time to consider their deliberations they get copious amounts of information and can go back for more if required. They can also talk to experts if required for more advice.They can even delay their decisions if needed. Whilst the decisions are inherently difficult, at the end of the day you only have to make a decision on the merits of what you were shown at the time and you get away Scot Free. The only thing you can get done for is for doing something that is criminal. And even then it has to be pretty obvious.To draw the thunderstorm analogy even further the board had the forecast 5 years ago that there might be a line of storms coming and they needed to set a course of action to divert around them. Instead they decided to just keep on tracking straight at them hoping they might be able to go over the top. In end they few straight into one.
After watching the 4 Corners my only real question is why the board didn't have the guts to bone JB 5 years ago? He did a great job with the product and it was a good airline but it just couldn't go on forever like that and everyone knew it, so why didn't they just be pragmatic and sort it out 5 years ago? Why wait another 4-5 years to take action and risk getting caught out in the meantime?
It sure will be interesting to see where the Australian members of the board pop up next. I'll bet they will all have board jobs within a year. Screw up like they did as a pilot and if you actually live to tell the tale good luck getting further employment.
There’s the difference then. You know what it must be like flying through a thunderstorm. I know what it’s like when the corporate dung hits the fan and the public is baying for your blood and YOU are held to be to blame. Neither is a pleasant feeling.
Drinking Perrier, my backside. The actions of the Virgin Board and individual Directors are now being scrutinized for illegality by dozens of the finest legal brains in the country as well as the corporate regulator as well as the press. This scrutiny and potentially associated legal proceedings can go on for years. Your legal fees will likely bankrupt you and D&O insurance doesn’t cover illegalities on your part. You won’t be getting another Board gig either unless you are obviously squeaky clean. I have just had a friend lose a year of their life while awaiting possible legal action against them. Take it from me, russian roulette or half an hour in a thunderstorm may seem preferable to the long slow torture the lawyers are going to subject the Virgin Board to.
Non Star Actor; The Board didn’t have the guts to bone borghetti because they couldn’t without a fight. Borghetti was a Director. He had a right to full information on everything and authority to attend and vote at all meetings. He had shareholder backing which is why he was on the Board. He was an effing Director, NOT an employee of the company. To remove him if he didn’t want to go would have required the Board to lobby the shareholders, get the votes to requisition a special general meeting, call for nominations, probably for all positions and get the shareholder to vote JB down. The name for that is a #$#@ fight and it would have has to be done in the full glare of publicity which wouldn’t do morale or revenue much good either.
If he was a simple CEO, as an employee, he could have been fired as soon as it became apparent that he was risking the business. Simple, private and cheap; he would have gone “to spend time with his family”.
Drinking Perrier, my backside. The actions of the Virgin Board and individual Directors are now being scrutinized for illegality by dozens of the finest legal brains in the country as well as the corporate regulator as well as the press. This scrutiny and potentially associated legal proceedings can go on for years. Your legal fees will likely bankrupt you and D&O insurance doesn’t cover illegalities on your part. You won’t be getting another Board gig either unless you are obviously squeaky clean. I have just had a friend lose a year of their life while awaiting possible legal action against them. Take it from me, russian roulette or half an hour in a thunderstorm may seem preferable to the long slow torture the lawyers are going to subject the Virgin Board to.
Non Star Actor; The Board didn’t have the guts to bone borghetti because they couldn’t without a fight. Borghetti was a Director. He had a right to full information on everything and authority to attend and vote at all meetings. He had shareholder backing which is why he was on the Board. He was an effing Director, NOT an employee of the company. To remove him if he didn’t want to go would have required the Board to lobby the shareholders, get the votes to requisition a special general meeting, call for nominations, probably for all positions and get the shareholder to vote JB down. The name for that is a #$#@ fight and it would have has to be done in the full glare of publicity which wouldn’t do morale or revenue much good either.
If he was a simple CEO, as an employee, he could have been fired as soon as it became apparent that he was risking the business. Simple, private and cheap; he would have gone “to spend time with his family”.
Last edited by Sunfish; 1st Jul 2020 at 05:52.
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The actions of the Virgin Board and individual Directors are now being scrutinized for illegality by dozens of the finest legal brains in the country as well as the corporate regulator as well as the press.]
You’re showing your true colours Sunny, safely tucked away in your ivory tower.
F@ck some of you guys are like schoolyard bullies.
Give Sunfish a f@cking break. He is offering opinions on here from a completely different perspective, you don't have to $hit on him every time he opens his mouth. The way you hang $hit on him is the same way non flying public do on pilots. Walk a mile in someone elses shoes etc etc.
The way some of you guys go on here, WTF aren't YOU getting MBA's and entering the 'corporate market'.
PS I have no sympathy for corporates, but it is of interest to hear of their process. Even if they never seem to be held liable.
Give Sunfish a f@cking break. He is offering opinions on here from a completely different perspective, you don't have to $hit on him every time he opens his mouth. The way you hang $hit on him is the same way non flying public do on pilots. Walk a mile in someone elses shoes etc etc.
The way some of you guys go on here, WTF aren't YOU getting MBA's and entering the 'corporate market'.
PS I have no sympathy for corporates, but it is of interest to hear of their process. Even if they never seem to be held liable.
WishIwasup there, you can join Blackout and Ozbiggles. What you say about boards is the exact equivalent of a VFR pilot saying “I don’t know what the fuss is about IFR flying, all you have to do is follow the needles. Anyone can fly a B777, those pilots are paid way too much”.
Blackout I agree with you. Blame those at the top, starting with the chairperson. However don’t think that it’s an easy job. Their mistake, in my opinion, is having a structure where JB was an MD. I have already explained why this is a bad idea.
Blackout I agree with you. Blame those at the top, starting with the chairperson. However don’t think that it’s an easy job. Their mistake, in my opinion, is having a structure where JB was an MD. I have already explained why this is a bad idea.
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Hmmm- shan't say much, as it could dissipate/& evaporate via 3'rd party displeasure....
However- (given the cadence of this..) 'should' this be, a Reg Compliance environment with a/the Regulator- the term, 'Systemic Cultural Failure'- have any relevance on his Gig...???? or Not.
Evening-
Rgds all
S28- BE
However- (given the cadence of this..) 'should' this be, a Reg Compliance environment with a/the Regulator- the term, 'Systemic Cultural Failure'- have any relevance on his Gig...???? or Not.
Evening-
Rgds all
S28- BE
The way some of you guys go on here, WTF aren't YOU getting MBA's and entering the 'corporate market'.
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Hmmm- shan't say much, as it could dissipate/& evaporate via 3'rd party displeasure....
However- (given the cadence of this..) 'should' this be, a Reg Compliance environment with a/the Regulator- the term, 'Systemic Cultural Failure'- have any relevance on his Gig...???? or Not.
Evening-
Rgds all
S28- BE
However- (given the cadence of this..) 'should' this be, a Reg Compliance environment with a/the Regulator- the term, 'Systemic Cultural Failure'- have any relevance on his Gig...???? or Not.
Evening-
Rgds all
S28- BE
Blackout, the number of people with the skills and experience to be a director of a public company are limited. Then there is the little matter that Directors are not hired, they are voted by shareholders.
If I am a big superannuation fund, invested in multiple companies, I will have a “stable” of reliable proven directors that I am happy will protect my interests. That is why you see multiple directorships. I say again, Directors are not hired, they are appointed. they are not employees.
If I am a big superannuation fund, invested in multiple companies, I will have a “stable” of reliable proven directors that I am happy will protect my interests. That is why you see multiple directorships. I say again, Directors are not hired, they are appointed. they are not employees.
Lookleft, for some reason I am trying to prevent professional pilots from making fools of themselves when talking about business. I do this in return for this website preventing me from making a fool of myself when flying. I am merely trying to give something back in return for the sage advice from the pilots here.
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There was a good interview with JB a few years back. He was presenting to a forum at Sydney uni I think. Anyway, at one point he went on to speak with great pride how his father used to challenge him to sell a specific dish to customers in his restaurant when he was a boy. Usually the steak because it was the most expensive. JB spoke with great pride about the lessons he learnt about selling people something they didn’t really want. And that really is all you need to know about JB, In his own words, he’s pretty much just a salesman, and a damn good one. So good he managed to con multiple major airlines into tipping billions into a loss making business, he conned his board into believing he knew what he was doing, for a period he conned his employees as well, and he definitely conned the media during his tenure. Only one person called him out and that was Chris Luxon, when all the time he was just an upstart mailboy with some sales experience. He used to take great pride in telling anyone that would listen that he only had high school education. He truly was an imposter, that pulled the wool,over everyone’s eyes for 10 years.
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As annoys a hell lot of people (self included) would you please tell us WHY you type in (being generous) riddles, being more honest typing out and out crap??
Used to think was a keyboard problem, now wondering if actually a hardwired brain problem??
If you think it's cute fair enough - but I'll tend to ignore from past experience....and I'd be disappointed to miss out on something that would actually make me think/consider.
Thanks, cheers
Used to think was a keyboard problem, now wondering if actually a hardwired brain problem??
If you think it's cute fair enough - but I'll tend to ignore from past experience....and I'd be disappointed to miss out on something that would actually make me think/consider.
Thanks, cheers
