QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
Neither Country has Stand down provisions. The Japs have to pay 60% of salary to Furloughed employees
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: australia
Posts: 916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apologies if badly phrased.
Just struck me a tad "deckchairs on the titanic" to be discussing the currency/return to flying costs when greater interest should be the size and shape of QF in the future - and how many staff/pilots will be required.
Six months in and AirJapan/Scoot are now deciding to downsize, other airlines will be doing the same as total uncertainty regards international travel volumes in 2021 and onwards.
I think QF will survive - although it doesn't have to, just a company and if the expenses continue to exceed income the cash burn will only stop when no more cash to burn, spending money now that doesn't have to be spent would seem illogical.
Might cost more in the future - but QF have to survive to get to that future.
Just struck me a tad "deckchairs on the titanic" to be discussing the currency/return to flying costs when greater interest should be the size and shape of QF in the future - and how many staff/pilots will be required.
Six months in and AirJapan/Scoot are now deciding to downsize, other airlines will be doing the same as total uncertainty regards international travel volumes in 2021 and onwards.
I think QF will survive - although it doesn't have to, just a company and if the expenses continue to exceed income the cash burn will only stop when no more cash to burn, spending money now that doesn't have to be spent would seem illogical.
Might cost more in the future - but QF have to survive to get to that future.
These connections will enable business to reactivate their operations quickly — without having to rehire staff — when the crisis is over.
Hmm...fair point. I was focusing more on the concept of “reactivating operations” and “maintain the connection with employees”.
Aviation is fairly unique in that it involves long lead in training times, so it’s not as simple as just rehiring staff.
Aviation is fairly unique in that it involves long lead in training times, so it’s not as simple as just rehiring staff.
Apologies if badly phrased.
Just struck me a tad "deckchairs on the titanic" to be discussing the currency/return to flying costs when greater interest should be the size and shape of QF in the future - and how many staff/pilots will be required.
Six months in and AirJapan/Scoot are now deciding to downsize, other airlines will be doing the same as total uncertainty regards international travel volumes in 2021 and onwards.
I think QF will survive - although it doesn't have to, just a company and if the expenses continue to exceed income the cash burn will only stop when no more cash to burn, spending money now that doesn't have to be spent would seem illogical.
Might cost more in the future - but QF have to survive to get to that future.
Just struck me a tad "deckchairs on the titanic" to be discussing the currency/return to flying costs when greater interest should be the size and shape of QF in the future - and how many staff/pilots will be required.
Six months in and AirJapan/Scoot are now deciding to downsize, other airlines will be doing the same as total uncertainty regards international travel volumes in 2021 and onwards.
I think QF will survive - although it doesn't have to, just a company and if the expenses continue to exceed income the cash burn will only stop when no more cash to burn, spending money now that doesn't have to be spent would seem illogical.
Might cost more in the future - but QF have to survive to get to that future.
thats about a 15% reduction in LH crew numbers to start, bearing in mind we've been short for yonks.
also all remaining crew being stood down only costing leave accrual so about a 90% pay cut thus its easier to justify not making a bunch redundant with associated (substantial) costs.
Many/most(?) Other airlines dont have this option available to them.
thats the current state of play at least.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: DeShire
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes Maggot.
Qantas pilots are some of the worst off globally during COVID. I think only Finnair is as bad talking to a CPT recently.
Stand down is exceptionally favourable for Qantas but unfavourable to Pilots.
Most countries laws require between 50-80% of salary even if not flying. 188 pilots are leaving via CR. 280 have taken LWOP for years.
Around another 60-80 will be over retirement age when flying returns.
It’s roughly 30-35% of the pilot body that will not be around the next few years. In line with most pilot layoffs around the world
Good news is a vaccine looks like it will arrive before the end of the year. If you look at the 787 flight to nowhere it sold out in less than 10 minutes.
The pent up demand for travel is huge.
Qantas pilots are some of the worst off globally during COVID. I think only Finnair is as bad talking to a CPT recently.
Stand down is exceptionally favourable for Qantas but unfavourable to Pilots.
Most countries laws require between 50-80% of salary even if not flying. 188 pilots are leaving via CR. 280 have taken LWOP for years.
Around another 60-80 will be over retirement age when flying returns.
It’s roughly 30-35% of the pilot body that will not be around the next few years. In line with most pilot layoffs around the world
Good news is a vaccine looks like it will arrive before the end of the year. If you look at the 787 flight to nowhere it sold out in less than 10 minutes.
The pent up demand for travel is huge.
Scoot, AirJapan have just laid off their expats...after 6 months or so of this crap, they are international carriers and have finally come to the conclusion there is no clear path regards international travel returning...so time to hunker down, layoff and downsize.
Cadets won’t really be needed until the 2030s at this stage unless your a bottom feeding prop operation that nobody wants to work for and continues the high turnover.
Those who I worked with about 10-15 years ago in Tiger Singapore remain.
Most of the foreign pilots in Scoot who did not have permanent residence were let go. However they are first inline when the company needs to recruit again. Unfortunately this is likely to be a number of years as, in common with most airlines, an excess to current requirements is being retained in order to be ready as things pick up.
SIA retrenched a much lower percentage of pilots, also all foreigners sans PR. The main difference is that SIA is a career airline and most non citizens who joined would have intended to stay for their entire career, in which case applying for PR would make sense. Many of the foreigners in Scoot only intended to be there for a few years before moving on and in this case PR wouldn’t have been worth it.
Some will take up other jobs and some will leave the industry all together.
SIA retrenched a much lower percentage of pilots, also all foreigners sans PR. The main difference is that SIA is a career airline and most non citizens who joined would have intended to stay for their entire career, in which case applying for PR would make sense. Many of the foreigners in Scoot only intended to be there for a few years before moving on and in this case PR wouldn’t have been worth it.
Some will take up other jobs and some will leave the industry all together.
Some think QF can stand down staff indefinitely but maybe QF aren’t too sure about it themselves?
QF Annual Report 19/20.
Maybe some in QF Legal have their doubts?
Irrelevant really because AIPA have rolled over on it anyway!
The COVID-19 crisis has necessitated the standing down of a significant portion of employees. While the need to stand down employees will decrease over time, any significant successful legal challenge to the Qantas Group’s ability to stand down employees could likely have a material adverse effect on the Qantas Group’s financial performance and condition.
Maybe some in QF Legal have their doubts?
Irrelevant really because AIPA have rolled over on it anyway!
If you want to run a case that pilots can’t be stood down when there are no border restrictions in place (for example), then you need to wait until there are no border restrictions before you can run that case.
No point running a case against the stand down now whilst domestic and international border restrictions quite obviously leave the business untenable. All you’d do is lose a whole lot of members money on legal fees and embolden Qantas to drag the stand down out further.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Here and there
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SIA doesn't have any pilots that aren't ; Singaporean , Malaysian or foreigners with PR.
Retrenchments would be from all of thee groups but, probably more foreigners with PR.
Expatriates were terminated many years ago and I don't believe that they have employed DECs since.
SIA is a career airline and a few expatriates from the 70s and 80s took out PR but, none did so in recent times because the salary was so much better as an expatriate.
Those foreigners who have PR would have come through the cadet program or SilkAir and worked on local terms from the start.
To them PR would make sense but, not to expatriates.
Retrenchments would be from all of thee groups but, probably more foreigners with PR.
Expatriates were terminated many years ago and I don't believe that they have employed DECs since.
SIA is a career airline and a few expatriates from the 70s and 80s took out PR but, none did so in recent times because the salary was so much better as an expatriate.
Those foreigners who have PR would have come through the cadet program or SilkAir and worked on local terms from the start.
To them PR would make sense but, not to expatriates.
I agree with BB and hope that AIPA are biding their time. For the life of me I cannot imagine QF thinking that LH pilots especially those on the 380 and 744 will accept being stood down for years. In that sense BB is right that all the ducks need to be lined up. For the time being the ALAEA action will be interesting. It’s also interesting, from the annual report, that QF consider it a possible eventuality.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: australia
Age: 74
Posts: 907
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe you maybe correct Wingspar .
I too believe AIPA maybe biding their time on this and a myriad of other issues until after the upcoming AIPA elections where certain “impediments” are likely to be “circumvented” allowing CoM under a new Executive to continue pursuing unanswered questions once again .
Something that hasn’t occurred with the last few iterations of the FUD elite !
I believe you maybe correct Wingspar .
I too believe AIPA maybe biding their time on this and a myriad of other issues until after the upcoming AIPA elections where certain “impediments” are likely to be “circumvented” allowing CoM under a new Executive to continue pursuing unanswered questions once again .
Something that hasn’t occurred with the last few iterations of the FUD elite !
I too believe AIPA maybe biding their time on this and a myriad of other issues until after the upcoming AIPA elections where certain “impediments” are likely to be “circumvented” allowing CoM under a new Executive to continue pursuing unanswered questions once again .
Something that hasn’t occurred with the last few iterations of the FUD elite !
Travelling in Europe: Which countries have border restrictions in place?
Even though the continent is more open than March/April every country has a myriad of different restrictions in place with regards to entry, quarantine, isolation, reasons for entry, health checks, documentation and ports of entry. It is very likely the Australian government will impose similar measures in differing standards against different countries. The US for instance will probably have more stringent measures than others for a few years more, and that was a big international market for Australia.
This is also notwithstanding other nation’s restrictions on entry which may affect airline business, that could possibly also be altered at short notice. The borders won’t be back to December 2019 levels by mid next year, it’ll be a few years more after that and justification for stand downs will be well entrenched. That’s even assuming the border restrictions are the catalyst for stand downs which is what some are arguing here, not the pandemic and associated lack of international travel.
