QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
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My statement wasn’t an opinion, it’s a statement of fact. Under the agreement they can give notice or payment in lieu of notice. The minimum cost to the company under current stand down provisions is to let the employee serve out the notice period on stand down. They may choose not to do it, but that is entirely up to the company.
I don't suppose it matters now, AJ's going to outsource all that. Tino is setting up the labour hire/training facility and rumour has it there's a few ex-virgin guys looking to change brands.
Dan Andrews means the same to me as what Bob Hawke was to the ‘89ers.
Never forget.
Never forget.
Long term, that idea/attitude/mindset of ‘never forget’ will bring you slowly down. It will change your personality in a way that your loved ones won’t like and won’t achieve anything good. In the immediate future maybe indulge it a bit but be aware of when others are moving on and check that you are too, don’t surround yourself with others that also ‘never forget’. If you hold onto it long enough you become a bitter rambling irrelevant old fool. Seen it happen to an immediate family member who got into the habit of looking backwards instead of forward. So my suggestion is ‘ make sure that ‘ never forget’ doesn’t become a permanent mindset.’
All the best.
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Nunc est bibendum
You’re right Derfred. My apologies. I should have used the word ‘agreement’ when responding to whoever it was that was talking about the the ‘industrial court’.
Thanks Green.Dot
I checked back here an hour after posting because I was hoping hoping hoping that my post would be taken the way I meant it and it looks like that’s the case. I just seriously don’t want to see yet another large group of people hurt themselves in this way.
Cheers
I checked back here an hour after posting because I was hoping hoping hoping that my post would be taken the way I meant it and it looks like that’s the case. I just seriously don’t want to see yet another large group of people hurt themselves in this way.
Cheers
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I understand but I’d like to make a suggestion if you’re open to considering it;
Long term, that idea/attitude/mindset of ‘never forget’ will bring you slowly down. It will change your personality in a way that your loved ones won’t like and won’t achieve anything good. In the immediate future maybe indulge it a bit but be aware of when others are moving on and check that you are too, don’t surround yourself with others that also ‘never forget’. If you hold onto it long enough you become a bitter rambling irrelevant old fool. Seen it happen to an immediate family member who got into the habit of looking backwards instead of forward. So my suggestion is ‘ make sure that ‘ never forget’ doesn’t become a permanent mindset.’
All the best.
Long term, that idea/attitude/mindset of ‘never forget’ will bring you slowly down. It will change your personality in a way that your loved ones won’t like and won’t achieve anything good. In the immediate future maybe indulge it a bit but be aware of when others are moving on and check that you are too, don’t surround yourself with others that also ‘never forget’. If you hold onto it long enough you become a bitter rambling irrelevant old fool. Seen it happen to an immediate family member who got into the habit of looking backwards instead of forward. So my suggestion is ‘ make sure that ‘ never forget’ doesn’t become a permanent mindset.’
All the best.
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You are right, apologies for my loose terminology, it’s an agreement not an award.
Now in regards to your payout, my opinion is you are wrong.
15.10.4 clearly states
“that the combined period of notice and the redundancy entitlement specified in clause 15.10.5 will not be less than 26 weeks.”
Then 15.10.6 states,
”For the purposes of this clause 15.10, ‘a week’s pay’ means the applicable MGH for a full time pilot multiplied by the hourly rate but does not include AFDP or allowances.”
So a minimum of 26 weeks combined and a weeks pay defined.
If we wanted to use your interpretative opinion, then you are still wrong for anyone in the company whose entitlement is less than 13 weeks.
15.10.4(a) states,
“The Company must give a pilot at least three (3) months’ notice of termination due to redundancy provided”
That is at least 3 months notice. Since the minimum combined period of notice and redundancy entitlement is 26 weeks, then using your interpretive opinion, they could pay 4 weeks(plus AL/LSL) to those who are entitled to the minimum of 4 weeks pay and give you 22 weeks notice.
Either way you are wrong, but my opinion is not less than 26 weeks pay.
Now in regards to your payout, my opinion is you are wrong.
15.10.4 clearly states
“that the combined period of notice and the redundancy entitlement specified in clause 15.10.5 will not be less than 26 weeks.”
Then 15.10.6 states,
”For the purposes of this clause 15.10, ‘a week’s pay’ means the applicable MGH for a full time pilot multiplied by the hourly rate but does not include AFDP or allowances.”
So a minimum of 26 weeks combined and a weeks pay defined.
If we wanted to use your interpretative opinion, then you are still wrong for anyone in the company whose entitlement is less than 13 weeks.
15.10.4(a) states,
“The Company must give a pilot at least three (3) months’ notice of termination due to redundancy provided”
That is at least 3 months notice. Since the minimum combined period of notice and redundancy entitlement is 26 weeks, then using your interpretive opinion, they could pay 4 weeks(plus AL/LSL) to those who are entitled to the minimum of 4 weeks pay and give you 22 weeks notice.
Either way you are wrong, but my opinion is not less than 26 weeks pay.
You get three months notice (on which you will accrue leave because you’re still employed) and three months pay (on which you won’t). You don’t get the leave accrual on both the notice period and the payout amount because you aren’t employed for the 3 months payout.
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I don’t understand what you are getting at. Forget leave accumulation for the moment. Let’s just focus on using your method and using the agreement.
Using your method, you are saying that you won’t get paid the 3 months notice and will get paid 3 months pay. You divided that into 2 lots of 13, I’m ok with that.
Now the agreement say “at least 3 months notice”. So the notice period that you spoke of(13 weeks) is at least. So the company can increase the notice period to whatever they like and use the 15.10.5 to work out your redundancy entitlement. The minimum is 4 weeks, so how about we use an example of a pilot who is only entitled to 4 weeks.
So using your interpretation of the agreement where you believe the notice period doesn’t need to be paid out, what is stopping the company from increasing the notice period to 22 weeks and paying the minimum of 4 weeks? Using your interpretation, nothing.
I don’t agree with your interpretation of the agreement. To me, it’s clear, it’s a minimum of 26 weeks.
Using your method, you are saying that you won’t get paid the 3 months notice and will get paid 3 months pay. You divided that into 2 lots of 13, I’m ok with that.
Now the agreement say “at least 3 months notice”. So the notice period that you spoke of(13 weeks) is at least. So the company can increase the notice period to whatever they like and use the 15.10.5 to work out your redundancy entitlement. The minimum is 4 weeks, so how about we use an example of a pilot who is only entitled to 4 weeks.
So using your interpretation of the agreement where you believe the notice period doesn’t need to be paid out, what is stopping the company from increasing the notice period to 22 weeks and paying the minimum of 4 weeks? Using your interpretation, nothing.
I don’t agree with your interpretation of the agreement. To me, it’s clear, it’s a minimum of 26 weeks.
I accept that this isn’t the intention of 15.10.4 but I don’t think there is anything stopping the company giving someone notice while they are on stand down, thereby avoiding paying them for that notice period.
The company has shown that they are willing to withhold entitlements to save a dollar. Look at the poor people who were on long term sick leave.
My opinion:
As a matter of construction, 15.10.4 determines notice period of redundancy. 15.10.5 determines minimum entitlements for redundancy. The two items are not the same. If 26 weeks pay was the minimum entitlement, it would be stated in 15.10.5. Moreover, 15.10.4(b) states that by agreement with an individual pilot, a notice of redundancy may be paid out... The word 'may' means that the payment in lieu of notice is discretionary (that is, it is not an entitlement) - so long as the parties agree.
So, a pilot who's minimum redundancy entitlement under 15.10.5 is 4 weeks would have to be given 22 weeks notice (or by agreement be paid 22 weeks notice in lieu). In 'normal' circumstances when the stand down provisions were not in force, that would amount to 26 weeks of pay. If the pilot is stood down, that notice period should attract whatever job keeper minimum payment is in force at the time.
As a matter of construction, 15.10.4 determines notice period of redundancy. 15.10.5 determines minimum entitlements for redundancy. The two items are not the same. If 26 weeks pay was the minimum entitlement, it would be stated in 15.10.5. Moreover, 15.10.4(b) states that by agreement with an individual pilot, a notice of redundancy may be paid out... The word 'may' means that the payment in lieu of notice is discretionary (that is, it is not an entitlement) - so long as the parties agree.
So, a pilot who's minimum redundancy entitlement under 15.10.5 is 4 weeks would have to be given 22 weeks notice (or by agreement be paid 22 weeks notice in lieu). In 'normal' circumstances when the stand down provisions were not in force, that would amount to 26 weeks of pay. If the pilot is stood down, that notice period should attract whatever job keeper minimum payment is in force at the time.
Regarding the last 3 posts,
Guys, VR has met it’s achieved targets. That and retirements will take care of the forecast long term surplus.
It makes no sense to discuss the finer details of CR now. It is not on the table, and there no plans for it to be put on the table. All you are doing by continually mentioning it is inducing more fear into a group that already has enough stress to deal with.
Guys, VR has met it’s achieved targets. That and retirements will take care of the forecast long term surplus.
It makes no sense to discuss the finer details of CR now. It is not on the table, and there no plans for it to be put on the table. All you are doing by continually mentioning it is inducing more fear into a group that already has enough stress to deal with.
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Thread Starter
Regarding the last 3 posts,
Guys, VR has met it’s achieved targets. That and retirements will take care of the forecast long term surplus.
It makes no sense to discuss the finer details of CR now. It is not on the table, and there no plans for it to be put on the table. All you are doing by continually mentioning it is inducing more fear into a group that already has enough stress to deal with.
Guys, VR has met it’s achieved targets. That and retirements will take care of the forecast long term surplus.
It makes no sense to discuss the finer details of CR now. It is not on the table, and there no plans for it to be put on the table. All you are doing by continually mentioning it is inducing more fear into a group that already has enough stress to deal with.
Tino said yesterday (purely his opinion), that he would be utterly astonished if CR was needed from here.
That doesnt rule it out, just that even from the out going International CEO it’s very, very unlikely. They seem to sincerely believe there is significant pent up demand, and as markets eventually open back up everyone remaining will eventually be needed in the short to medium term.
No it wasn’t. 8 numbers out of 2200 in the employee group is negligible. In 2014 the VR program was far lower subscribed than this year but management deemed that, combined with LWOP, that was enough.
This year they got to within 4% of the target. Someone will be rewarded for that.
You bringing that point up continuously is like those who mention CR continuously. I’d suggest you take the advice you probably got in your first flying lessons in a Cessna about how to solve a problem - “look at the big picture”. Don't get bogged down in minute detail. From a big picture perspective the issue of surplus crew has been sorted out.
This year they got to within 4% of the target. Someone will be rewarded for that.
You bringing that point up continuously is like those who mention CR continuously. I’d suggest you take the advice you probably got in your first flying lessons in a Cessna about how to solve a problem - “look at the big picture”. Don't get bogged down in minute detail. From a big picture perspective the issue of surplus crew has been sorted out.
Last edited by dr dre; 27th Aug 2020 at 02:41.
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Each to their own , I would believe that CR was no longer on the table if company put something in writing to AIPA
The risk for me would be when you might return after CR and what you would be paid at that point in time , seems
certain year one & as an SO on a salary scale of $100 to $115 (if QF orders 350). Also LOL complexities for when you are not a QF employee
QF don't tend to telegraph punches for CR , they didn't for 6000 who have been made CR to date
The risk for me would be when you might return after CR and what you would be paid at that point in time , seems
certain year one & as an SO on a salary scale of $100 to $115 (if QF orders 350). Also LOL complexities for when you are not a QF employee
QF don't tend to telegraph punches for CR , they didn't for 6000 who have been made CR to date
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Each to their own , I would believe that CR was no longer on the table if company put something in writing to AIPA
The risk for me would be when you might return after CR and what you would be paid at that point in time , seems
certain year one & as an SO on a salary scale of $100 to $115 (if QF orders 350). Also LOL complexities for when you are not a QF employee
QF don't tend to telegraph punches for CR , they didn't for 6000 who have been made CR to date
The risk for me would be when you might return after CR and what you would be paid at that point in time , seems
certain year one & as an SO on a salary scale of $100 to $115 (if QF orders 350). Also LOL complexities for when you are not a QF employee
QF don't tend to telegraph punches for CR , they didn't for 6000 who have been made CR to date
What's the agenda here? If you want to take LWOP or whatever that's your decision. If you're trying to start a pile on, at least wait for the EBA variations where a majority vote is needed.