QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

[Tucknroll]

Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist

I disagree - a 50% pay cut is untenable for most. Any scaremongering to reduce divisor as a method of serving the greater good is nonsense. If the company deem they will not carry the surplus then there is an EBA provision for how that is handled. The company will weigh that cost vs a short term surplus. If it’s anything other than short term, then a few months of half divisors won’t make a material difference to the company - but it would make a massive difference to the individuals involved.

HR using pilots to maximum? EBA covers that too.

Don’t be so keen to throw out your award - those provisions that are in place aren’t there by accident.

Selfish? I don’t think so, but it’s not up to us to fix the company’s problems.

Saving redundancies at massive cost? Not for me I’m afraid. Make me CR, I’ll come back when the time comes.

Just 1 opinion.

Hear hear.

I’m tired of surveys and platitudes from the union.
We have an agreement, signed during COVID no less, let’s stick to it. The company doesn’t vary the EA in good times to give us extra pay rises or more paid leave. I have no doubt how an approach for such variations would be received by the company.

[Telfer86]

Should be more like the Brits , they avoided large CR by taking a pay cut , 16% or something

VR was a good deal matched CR for those under 5 years, about 80% of CR for those who joined from 05 to 09 , further back it wound its way back to 50%
of CR that doesn't happen until mid 90s

The Virgin 20 year pilots got 16 weeks

If you want CR stay, if you don't take lwop & also any "group" opportunities (yes we all know looking smallish at the moment, but 40 or so jobs for stand downs in group airlines to date , NZ QF airlines looking ok, people do retire)

But understand that if you take CR you will return on year 1 pay scales , that will suck up any benefits accrued on stand down quickly, but that isn't even the start of it
Also be aware of 32.7 & the new reduced rates applicable if QF order the A350. If you return from CR as an SO you will commence on $100 per hour rising to a ceiling of $115 an hour after six years & you will be subject to the new B scale that EBA 10 brings in. SO rates at twenty bucks an hour less than the 787

If you complain to QF about above they will just remind you "Well you voted for it mate"

It is hard to see QF doing nothing, all the current situation does is increase the SO wage bill for when flying does return

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly

Zero concessions from an organisation utilising stand down clauses when there is no work means zero concessions when that work returns.

Flexibility goes both ways.

Boom! Perfectly put.

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly

Zero concessions from an organisation utilising stand down clauses when there is no work means zero concessions when that work returns.

Flexibility goes both ways.

Higher divisors will mean less crew stood up so rolling stand ups will occur, effectively reducing income by the same percentage anyway. So in effect they pay cut will be the same but the payments less regular, and probably harder to plan a budget.

[Chad Gates]

NJS bases in PER and CNS will also close.

[Lapon]

Originally Posted by Chad Gates

NJS bases in PER and CNS will also close.

Making way for Network 320 expansion apparently.

NJS redeploying aircraft and crew with a new Melbourne base

[ScepticalOptomist]

Originally Posted by dr dre

Higher divisors will mean less crew stood up so rolling stand ups will occur, effectively reducing income by the same percentage anyway. So in effect they pay cut will be the same but the payments less regular, and probably harder to plan a budget.

Except once restrictions are lifted you can’t keep the workforce stood down.

All will be stood up, albeit on MGH.

The indefinite stand down is a good fear generator, but it’s not how the law works. Hence why LWOP is being pushed so hard. If you can convince a percentage of your workforce to volunteer for LWOP - that’s a whole bunch less you have to pay when everyone is stood up again.

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist

Except once restrictions are lifted you can’t keep the workforce stood down.

The first stand downs were issued when passengers numbers dropped off because of pandemic fears, before national or state borders closed. I don't think the status of the border was the reasoning used for stand downs. The other thought is that (up until June) there were open interstate borders between some states, yet domestic crews from various group entities and various bases were still stood down as required.

Even if it is I'm guessing there will be some form of restrictions applied to international entry like quarantine, vaccination, proof of negative antibody test, restrictions on entry from certain countries etc for a few years which would allow continued use of stand downs. Maybe it is thought stand downs can be used until flying is back to '19 levels. It may end up in court, but that will probably occur in a year or two. A long way off.

[machtuk]

I hope everyone remembers our corrupt Govt leaders especially our head grub Dan when this is all over (if ever!)
There will be a reckoning one day for these grubs and it won't be pretty!

[normanton]

Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist

Except once restrictions are lifted you can’t keep the workforce stood down.

All will be stood up, albeit on MGH.

The indefinite stand down is a good fear generator, but it’s not how the law works. Hence why LWOP is being pushed so hard. If you can convince a percentage of your workforce to volunteer for LWOP - that’s a whole bunch less you have to pay when everyone is stood up again.

Oh for goodness sake, yes they can keep you stood down.

[Angle of Attack]

They will keep everyone without work stood down until they are legally obliged to, I know a lot give Normanton some stick, but he/she is absolutely right! Until they are forced to otherwise it ain’t gonna happen. And that means keeping A380 pilots stood down for 3-5 years, they won’t change that unless there is a legal challenge to it.

[Tucknroll]

Originally Posted by angryrat

You need to go read the award. Specifically 15.10.4(a) and 15.10.6. It’s 26 weeks minimum and ‘a weeks pay’ is defined.

So the minimum is 26 weeks, plus AL and any pilot who has more than 12 months continuous service is also entitled to pro-rata LSL(another 9 days leave per year).

So many experts on here who either haven’t read the award or who have FA to do with QF spreading fear and rumours.

It’s an agreement, not an award, and I’ve read it.
im talking about 10.4 (a):

“The Company must give a pilot at least three (3) months’ notice of termination due to redundancy provided, that the combined period of notice and the redundancy entitlement specified in clause 15.10.5 will not be less than 26 weeks.”

Tell me, how much does the 3 months notice cost the company when you’re on stand down? I’ll save you the thinking time, It’s nothing except the leave you accrue in that time.

so say you have used all your leave (as many have) and you are given notice that you will be made redundant? How much is the minimum amount of pay you will get?

the answer is 3 months plus 1.5 or so weeks AL/LSL that You will accrue in the 3 months notice period.

[Telfer86]

Interesting nobody really wants to discuss the real issues of CR, when you return, on year increment one , and the new SO rates you would be
paid on return (given if QF order the 350) that top out at $115 an hour on the Airbus WB

The payout is excellent (but they won't pay the three months notice plus 4 weeks per year) , the return is at year one & on a B scale SO table

Arm yourself with the facts , not the she'll be right get a payout & be back on deck in 2 or 3 years on the same bucks - it's not going to work like that

[Telfer86]

No I don't it's just what the document says, that's all (or my reading of it & sure ain't an English Major)

Why the head in the sand , she'll be right approach , how does that assist people make rational decisions

Nothing like this has occurred before , there are no precedents & if more senior guys are trying to suggest they have seen it all
before - well I just wouldn't agree with that. Seen what ?? , the GFC (we didn't get one here), 2001 (a blip), early 1990s recession (yes was a bit
grim but just nothing compared to this)

We all wish this event didn't happen but it has, we all wish hundreds of Virgin & ANZ didn't have their employment finished but that has happened

We all wish hundreds of people hadn't died in Victoria but they have. I actually saw a post where someone on this section stated the Victorians are getting exactly what they deserve
- how nice , what class - positively gleeful at the events in Vic

There are no easy answers & no easy choices chancing CR is a double edged sword

If the plan is to return after CR there are very significant downsides to consider

[Xeptu]

Telfer. The recession of the early 90's started as a result of Black Wednesday in 87, it was a doozy. I agree with you that this will be much worse, but it hasn't started yet. Covid is the trigger, but the real impact comes (the trough) about 18 months later, so around September 21, if we have defeated covid and the state borders are open again, that will mark the recovery point. Airlines and Tourism are the very last to recover. So as an minimum around end 23 before some sort of normality is restored. My main concern is that historically we were expecting a recession every 10 years thereabouts, so we were sort of prepared, or at least braced for it. Today people have no clue what to expect, our kids think they are entitled within a throw away society. I'm really concerned when those two things meet.

[Derfred]

Originally Posted by Keg

The LHEA is a national award and overseen by Fairwork Australia. They’re the ones that rule on all matters relating to it.

Please, Keg! (et al, including Angryrat)

I know you are not a lawyer, and you don’t pretend to be one.

I know you have never served time on the AIPA Committee, and you have never pretended to have done so.

So, I get that (industrially) you have no idea what you are talking about. But a lot of people listen to you, because you are a voice of reason, and you don’t hide behind a pseudonym.

So, please get your language and your facts right, because people do listen to you. From a certain perspective, that assigns a certain responsibility to you, whether you like it or not.

The LHEA is not a national award. There is a national award for pilots, you can find it here. And if that was what you worked under, you would arguably be better able to provide for your family by holding a “STOP/GO” sign on the M2.

Qantas Long Haul pilots do not work under the Award, they work under the Qantas Airways Limited (Long Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2020.

I guess the word “work” is a little redundant, but they are still “employed” under the same instrument.

I know some management people. And I know they chuckle every time they see “bush lawyers” use the word “award” in forums, because it illustrates how little said employees know about industrial relations. That has and still does include many COM members.

The industry uses the terms “LHEA”, “EBA”, “Agreement”, or worse, “contract”. Never the term “Award”, because it actually means something completely different.

Regards, Fred

[Xeptu]

Originally Posted by Derfred

Qantas Long Haul pilots do not work under the Award, they work under the Qantas Airways Limited (Long Haul) Enterprise Agreement 2020

That's actually uncalled for and you don't "work" for anyone anymore.

[Derfred]

Originally Posted by Xeptu

That's actually uncalled for and you don't "work" for anyone anymore.

Completely agree. If you had read further to my next paragraph, you would have read:

I guess the word “work” is a little redundant, but they are still “employed” under the same instrument.

[Beer Baron]

Tell me, how much does the 3 months notice cost the company when you’re on stand down? I’ll save you the thinking time, It’s nothing except the leave you accrue in that time.

Well that’s not how Qantas see it and they are the ones writing the cheque.

The VR payments for stood down LH pilots included a 3 month notice period and it was to be paid in full.

That is the precedent. Your opinion is just your opinion.

[Green.Dot]

Originally Posted by machtuk

I hope everyone remembers our corrupt Govt leaders especially our head grub Dan when this is all over (if ever!)
There will be a reckoning one day for these grubs and it won't be pretty!

Dont stress Machtuk.

Dan Andrews means the same to me as what Bob Hawke was to the ‘89ers.

Never forget.