QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
from the goodness of their hearts to get us flying or perhaps they see themselves not maintaining standdowns being tenable, long term... thus forcing more expensive RINs and CRs
It would be and is unreasonable for any employee of Australia to be stood down indefinitely without pay.
Second Officer in the top 50 of the SO seniority list. It’s ok to be worried, we all are but your constant pushing of taking LWOP on here is no different to the threat being pushed by management.
I wouldn’t expect many to take the ER package but who really cares. This was in addition to the surplus and should the 60 odd not take it, they will slowly be forced out when the blow out their 65 birthday candles.
If you’re enforcing LWOP to protect yourself and remaining stood down then shame on you. Only you know and in a time like this it’s disgusting behaviour.
Its now Tuesday and the company is silent but from what I’ve heard overnight...high 300’s
Happy to hear otherwise.
Also Norm - I put the question to you if you’re being genuine..
Should the 196 be covered - why should we take LWOP and how long for? A future surplus will follow the same process and when would you think a future surplus be announced? Surely when a decision on the 380 is apparent..24 months time?
So to be passed over for a potential CR - Anything less than 24 months would have the same risk as not going at all.
Fuji
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Normanton, let me take a guess...
Second Officer in the top 50 of the SO seniority list. It’s ok to be worried, we all are but your constant pushing of taking LWOP on here is no different to the threat being pushed by management.
I wouldn’t expect many to take the ER package but who really cares. This was in addition to the surplus and should the 60 odd not take it, they will slowly be forced out when the blow out their 65 birthday candles.
If you’re enforcing LWOP to protect yourself and remaining stood down then shame on you. Only you know and in a time like this it’s disgusting behaviour.
Its now Tuesday and the company is silent but from what I’ve heard overnight...high 300’s
Happy to hear otherwise.
Also Norm - I put the question to you if you’re being genuine..
Should the 196 be covered - why should we take LWOP and how long for? A future surplus will follow the same process and when would you think a future surplus be announced? Surely when a decision on the 380 is apparent..24 months time?
So to be passed over for a potential CR - Anything less than 24 months would have the same risk as not going at all.
Fuji
Second Officer in the top 50 of the SO seniority list. It’s ok to be worried, we all are but your constant pushing of taking LWOP on here is no different to the threat being pushed by management.
I wouldn’t expect many to take the ER package but who really cares. This was in addition to the surplus and should the 60 odd not take it, they will slowly be forced out when the blow out their 65 birthday candles.
If you’re enforcing LWOP to protect yourself and remaining stood down then shame on you. Only you know and in a time like this it’s disgusting behaviour.
Its now Tuesday and the company is silent but from what I’ve heard overnight...high 300’s
Happy to hear otherwise.
Also Norm - I put the question to you if you’re being genuine..
Should the 196 be covered - why should we take LWOP and how long for? A future surplus will follow the same process and when would you think a future surplus be announced? Surely when a decision on the 380 is apparent..24 months time?
So to be passed over for a potential CR - Anything less than 24 months would have the same risk as not going at all.
Fuji
My only thought is your comment on "disgusting behaviour".
Is it disgusting behaviour for senior crew on Qrewroom to effectively say "tough luck, last on first off - enforce the EBA. Junior pilots to go". Then when the EBA is actually enforced by the company, allowing a 'get out of jail free' card to be played by people taking LWOP, suddenly I'm accused of disgusting behaviour? Talk about having your cake and eating it too!
Senior crew have the same choice as everyone else. Want to secure your career? Take LWOP. Seniority means nothing. It will not save you.
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Sure and you're quite right, that's because it was never envisaged that a stand down would only ever be a short period, where leave accrued and possibly even leave credits could be used to support those effected. Never would it have been imagined that something like job keeper would ever be needed. Now that we know, it will be capped and that is to the end of the year at this point, an amendment to the national stand down provisions is a stroke of the pen, which no doubt is being drafted as we speak.
It would be and is unreasonable for any employee of Australia to be stood down indefinitely without pay.
It would be and is unreasonable for any employee of Australia to be stood down indefinitely without pay.
Nunc est bibendum
Anyone over 65 cannot be terminated whilst stood down, that also creates more problems.
The sad part , it seems ok to pick on the junior guys , oh yeah they need to leave etc.
They are people too .
The company on the other hand do not want to get stuck with a bunch of whinging 50+ year olds so in 10 years they will all retire .
If 300 people have to go then the company will do it the most efficiently, it’s still 300 people .
I find it hard to digest the bottom of the list being treated as they are .
Remember when Swissair downsized they took evenly from the bottom and the top of the list .
Good luck to all !
They are people too .
The company on the other hand do not want to get stuck with a bunch of whinging 50+ year olds so in 10 years they will all retire .
If 300 people have to go then the company will do it the most efficiently, it’s still 300 people .
I find it hard to digest the bottom of the list being treated as they are .
Remember when Swissair downsized they took evenly from the bottom and the top of the list .
Good luck to all !
Top or bottom, pilots, FAs, baggage handlers or engineers they are all people with families and commitments. This is a tragedy beyond belief for everyone.
Seniority has it's place, in the normal world where everyone is equal it's the fairest way of doing it. However for an event of this magnitude it won't be. there's no need to think you're going to be displaced by a more senior pilot, particularly from a different type, that's not going to happen, nor will you see seat changes.
Whilst you can have seniority in your agreement it's not an allowable matter in law, that means a court can't rule on it, which means it won't be heard, it's not defendable. Therefore where a company sees it isn't appropriate to use it, it won't, this is one of those occasions.
Whilst you can have seniority in your agreement it's not an allowable matter in law, that means a court can't rule on it, which means it won't be heard, it's not defendable. Therefore where a company sees it isn't appropriate to use it, it won't, this is one of those occasions.
Nunc est bibendum
Pick on the junior guys? The reality is that at the moment it would be MUCH cheaper to CR the bottom 200 than offer VR for the same number of senior crew. No need to re-train anyone for the foreseeable future to cover those S/Os (and even 737 F/Os if they went from both hauls) and the bottom 200 can be done with a maximum 6 months pay at a much lower pay rate. Five S/Os can be CR’d for the same price as what QF is offering senior crew to take VR.
So far from picking on the junior crew the company has offered them a pretty significant lifeline in the short to medium term.
That line about ‘they are people too’? That applies equally to our senior colleagues who in many cases are concluding their careers a few years prior to when they may have planned and in majority of cases will not get their ‘retirement trip’ either.
The only thing we can really rely on here is the EA. For better or worse, when it comes to CR, it says last on, first off.
This is a crap storm irrespective of whether junior, senior or somewhere in the middle.
So far from picking on the junior crew the company has offered them a pretty significant lifeline in the short to medium term.
That line about ‘they are people too’? That applies equally to our senior colleagues who in many cases are concluding their careers a few years prior to when they may have planned and in majority of cases will not get their ‘retirement trip’ either.
The only thing we can really rely on here is the EA. For better or worse, when it comes to CR, it says last on, first off.
This is a crap storm irrespective of whether junior, senior or somewhere in the middle.
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Originally Posted by EBA
that is, on a last on first off basis except that the Company may 'pass over' a pilot who is on LWOP....
May or will?
I wouldn't be putting too much emphasis on your EBA, or Management just now. The board would be preparing a very specific brief and appoint an independent oversight committee who are not employees of the company. The brief will read something like this.
Identify those airframes in those bases and those staff we need right now, projected forward to the end of the year.
Everyone else stood down to the end of job keeper, then CR, except on LWOP (VR is normally aimed at those few you know are not coming back)
Reinstate those identified as needed over the following 12 months as part time short term, casual longer term.
Restore part time casual lwop as required according to progress.
Identify those airframes in those bases and those staff we need right now, projected forward to the end of the year.
Everyone else stood down to the end of job keeper, then CR, except on LWOP (VR is normally aimed at those few you know are not coming back)
Reinstate those identified as needed over the following 12 months as part time short term, casual longer term.
Restore part time casual lwop as required according to progress.
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Which is why you are advocating LWOP so hard. You think if enough guys take LWOP you will be spared from CR.
I have had a busy morning. Every other 787 Captain now has your true identity. I think its fair to say that given your behaviour during the EA10 period and now you will find a warn reception when flying resumes.
I have had a busy morning. Every other 787 Captain now has your true identity. I think its fair to say that given your behaviour during the EA10 period and now you will find a warn reception when flying resumes.
Which is why you are advocating LWOP so hard. You think if enough guys take LWOP you will be spared from CR.
I have had a busy morning. Every other 787 Captain now has your true identity. I think its fair to say that given your behaviour during the EA10 period and now you will find a warn reception when flying resumes.
I have had a busy morning. Every other 787 Captain now has your true identity. I think its fair to say that given your behaviour during the EA10 period and now you will find a warn reception when flying resumes.
Which is why you are advocating LWOP so hard. You think if enough guys take LWOP you will be spared from CR.
I have had a busy morning. Every other 787 Captain now has your true identity. I think its fair to say that given your behaviour during the EA10 period and now you will find a warn reception when flying resumes.
I have had a busy morning. Every other 787 Captain now has your true identity. I think its fair to say that given your behaviour during the EA10 period and now you will find a warn reception when flying resumes.
Nunc est bibendum
Crikey Normanton. Talk about conflation two separate issues. My post about ‘last on, first off’ was in reply to complaints about ‘picking on’ junior crew. In that respect the EA is the EA.
Still, you should have highlighted the word ‘may’ in your quote from the EA. Sure the company has said that they will skip those on LWOP but you can’t really take that to the bank. For a junior pilot taking LWOP only works if you’re hoping that someone senior doesn’t take it and they’re made redundant whilst you are not and you’re back flying before them.
Where your logic falls down is if the surplus is 300 pilots and 300 take LWOP then the surplus is dealt with and no one is made CR. When your 12 months of LWOP is done and you ask to come back the company will respond with ‘yeah, nah’. You’ll take another 12 months LWOP and eventually come back flying at the exact time you would have otherwise had you taken CR.
I suspect I speak for a lot of crew when I suggest that you should seriously consider LWOP. Perhaps 3-5 years would be a good amount of time?
Still, you should have highlighted the word ‘may’ in your quote from the EA. Sure the company has said that they will skip those on LWOP but you can’t really take that to the bank. For a junior pilot taking LWOP only works if you’re hoping that someone senior doesn’t take it and they’re made redundant whilst you are not and you’re back flying before them.
Where your logic falls down is if the surplus is 300 pilots and 300 take LWOP then the surplus is dealt with and no one is made CR. When your 12 months of LWOP is done and you ask to come back the company will respond with ‘yeah, nah’. You’ll take another 12 months LWOP and eventually come back flying at the exact time you would have otherwise had you taken CR.
I suspect I speak for a lot of crew when I suggest that you should seriously consider LWOP. Perhaps 3-5 years would be a good amount of time?