QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
Of course they'll say that on their koolaid dispensary/webinar
Norm, you hit the nail on the head in #903, it IS their train set indeed and this time around they will do as they please and nothing will stop them, not AIPA not ScoMo not the tea lady!!
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You are assured a job again when placed on the redundancy list if that future job will operate under your current award. Don’t be surprised to see talk of Tino’s new outsourced international operation come again. There will be new contracts offered for the new international ops if and when that starts up again. Take LWOP. That’s a leg in the door in case this scenario plays out which I think it will to some degree.
The latest email from AIPA suggests that if it moves to CR, it’ll be a long drawn out and expensive process.
The interesting part that will cause AIPA to lose its case is it refers to the LHEA for CR. The LHEA does not cover SHEA pilots. So provisions from the LHEA cannot be used to displace SH. Along with the FWA. Qantas would have done their homework and they don’t usually lose these types of disputes.
If it went down that path and AIPA became hell bent on putting a gun to Shorthaul so that longhaul has somewhere to go, there would be a lot of SH pilots looking for alternative representation.
It’s a mess and I don’t think any Qantas pilot has the stomach for it. Well maybe a few in the ’room’ that seem to want to watch it burn.
The interesting part that will cause AIPA to lose its case is it refers to the LHEA for CR. The LHEA does not cover SHEA pilots. So provisions from the LHEA cannot be used to displace SH. Along with the FWA. Qantas would have done their homework and they don’t usually lose these types of disputes.
If it went down that path and AIPA became hell bent on putting a gun to Shorthaul so that longhaul has somewhere to go, there would be a lot of SH pilots looking for alternative representation.
It’s a mess and I don’t think any Qantas pilot has the stomach for it. Well maybe a few in the ’room’ that seem to want to watch it burn.
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I was about to ask if any of the panic merchants had read the AIPA email (great email, by the way) - but it appears the usual suspects have just seen what they wanted to see.
There’s nothing we didn’t already know in the email regarding CR. A challenge would of course be expected. As would the loss of SH members.
i thought the info about LWOP and the process involved was well written, and I hope QF take this on board to assist in people’s decision making. It is blatantly obvious that people should know the results of thenVR/ER process before committing to a course of action, best of luck everyone.
i thought the info about LWOP and the process involved was well written, and I hope QF take this on board to assist in people’s decision making. It is blatantly obvious that people should know the results of thenVR/ER process before committing to a course of action, best of luck everyone.
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The company can bypass people on LWOP for CR (as expected).
Yup. Best to get your ducks all lined up while you still can.
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Guys back in late March when a significant portion of you were complaining & whining about the Project Sunrise Contract I said this
Guys the high & mighty Project Sunrise was something for pre global pandemic days
Who could forget the epic photos of QF leaders landing in Honolulu with loud shirts after indulging in a beverage or two
, or was this a delivery flight of the "game changer" . What a truly edifying happy snap that one was, how truly iconic it was for a brief moment. All so hard to remember , there was just so much big talk , so much chest beating & the hype (as well the delays in action & decisions) was just endless
Qantas is not going to order any aircraft for years & PS is dead
Stop dream time it won't help you rebuild your careers & for many that will mean finding either (a) a new airline or (b) a new career
Two years from now you will be doing incredibly well if you have two thirds of your international capacity back
You couldn't even see that international flying was gone for a long time & atm I would think getting 50% back within 4 years would be incredible
You need to accept how things are
1. International flying is gone for a long long time
2. AIPA isn't going to save you , they have lost every court challenge they initiated to QF this century (& there have been many)
3. There will be CRs at Qantas
4. It is unlikely SH will be isolated
5. Your more senior colleague urging you to "hang in there" just want a protective layer beneath them for when the inevitable CRs notices land
6. Any one who joined 2016 & doesn't take at least 3 to 5 years of lwop is either crazy or just not fussed so much
7. I think the CR will go back to early 2000s
8 See it as an opportunity to gain additional skills , quals , a long long surfing trip whatever works for you
The guys urging "hang in there" just an action replay of some of the more vocal domestic guys hanging around afap picket lines back in 1989
"hang in there mate" ; "the need us" , "its all a big bluff , they won't really bring in Americans" well the biggest talkers had already signed the new contracts.
It won't be any different here , some of biggest "just say no" guys will already have submitted their own application
Guys the high & mighty Project Sunrise was something for pre global pandemic days
Who could forget the epic photos of QF leaders landing in Honolulu with loud shirts after indulging in a beverage or two
, or was this a delivery flight of the "game changer" . What a truly edifying happy snap that one was, how truly iconic it was for a brief moment. All so hard to remember , there was just so much big talk , so much chest beating & the hype (as well the delays in action & decisions) was just endless
Qantas is not going to order any aircraft for years & PS is dead
Stop dream time it won't help you rebuild your careers & for many that will mean finding either (a) a new airline or (b) a new career
Two years from now you will be doing incredibly well if you have two thirds of your international capacity back
You couldn't even see that international flying was gone for a long time & atm I would think getting 50% back within 4 years would be incredible
You need to accept how things are
1. International flying is gone for a long long time
2. AIPA isn't going to save you , they have lost every court challenge they initiated to QF this century (& there have been many)
3. There will be CRs at Qantas
4. It is unlikely SH will be isolated
5. Your more senior colleague urging you to "hang in there" just want a protective layer beneath them for when the inevitable CRs notices land
6. Any one who joined 2016 & doesn't take at least 3 to 5 years of lwop is either crazy or just not fussed so much
7. I think the CR will go back to early 2000s
8 See it as an opportunity to gain additional skills , quals , a long long surfing trip whatever works for you
The guys urging "hang in there" just an action replay of some of the more vocal domestic guys hanging around afap picket lines back in 1989
"hang in there mate" ; "the need us" , "its all a big bluff , they won't really bring in Americans" well the biggest talkers had already signed the new contracts.
It won't be any different here , some of biggest "just say no" guys will already have submitted their own application
Someone needs to give you a cuddle Telfar. I mean seriously. That’s some of the most epic doomsday, empty glass, pessimistic, negative nelly tripe I’ve ever read.
If you’re actually a pilot I reckon you should get onto pan and talk it over before you convince yourself that you’re actually right!
If QF have to CR back to 2000 that’ll be all of the short haul FOS and most of the SOs gone.
If you’re actually a pilot I reckon you should get onto pan and talk it over before you convince yourself that you’re actually right!
If QF have to CR back to 2000 that’ll be all of the short haul FOS and most of the SOs gone.
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All of your SOs are gone , likely many don't know that (unless they take insurance,lwop)
Well it seems I might have been on the money up to this point , but yes my friend I make many many mistakes every day of my life
I would have thought 50% by March 2024 was an optimistic view
Why don't you share then , where will QF international be 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 years post pandemic (March 2020 start date)
Kick off is June 2021 isn't it ? That's when you start at 0%
Well it seems I might have been on the money up to this point , but yes my friend I make many many mistakes every day of my life
I would have thought 50% by March 2024 was an optimistic view
Why don't you share then , where will QF international be 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 years post pandemic (March 2020 start date)
Kick off is June 2021 isn't it ? That's when you start at 0%
Ok Telfer, you really need to take a seat and think. Almost all of what you wrote was fear filled speculation without providing an objective assessment of the situation. It’s what we are meant to do as pilots, no?
How long is long, long? Who knows. From what most estimates and company predictions say is that the 787 and 330 will be mostly on the ground until mid 21 and the 380 until mid 23. You have no evidence of any timeframe longer than that.
No one will require any ”saving”. The Fair Work Commission have said however they’ll be doing as much as they can to ensure businesses have flexibility to ensure they survive and remain profitable during this time, meaning any court actions will probably be in the company’s favour.
There are no forecast redundancies beyond the 190 announced, which, with the lack of flying, everyone believes that VR will take care of. Everyone else remains on stand down until a position is available, as management have said about 100 times.
Here’s the funny thing. You say AIPA isn’t going to save you in court and they lose all cases in point 2 but it’s AIPA who have the view that CR applies to everyone. Again no SH surplus for the entirety of the restructuring timeframe, no redundancy. The company will prevail there, especially with a business friendly FWC. Of course with VR taking care of the surplus wilt won’t come to that at all.
Or it’s more likely they have just been assessing the situation rationally and are offering common sense reasoning to their junior colleagues to avoid panic.
They aren’t crazy or not fussed. Everyone will assess the situation, and there are some who will prefer the definite time period off of LWOP to allow them to plan for a few years rather than to be subject to rotating stand downs which will probably be in place as the 787 and 330 come back to the line. Or they may be ok with that therefore avoid LWOP.
No way. Every 330 and 787 SO when those pilots will start to be required in a year, plus payouts to all of them some of whom are starting to accumulate a bit of time in the company.
Probably your only sensible point. I think a lot of people will look back on these 1-3 years depending on fleet and realise they got a chance to experience another chapter to their working life on their one time on this planet, rather than spend 100% of it in Aviation.
How long is long, long? Who knows. From what most estimates and company predictions say is that the 787 and 330 will be mostly on the ground until mid 21 and the 380 until mid 23. You have no evidence of any timeframe longer than that.
2. AIPA isn't going to save you , they have lost every court challenge they initiated to QF this century (& there have been many)
3. There will be CRs at Qantas
4. It is unlikely SH will be isolated
5. Your more senior colleague urging you to "hang in there" just want a protective layer beneath them for when the inevitable CRs notices land
6. Any one who joined 2016 & doesn't take at least 3 to 5 years of lwop is either crazy or just not fussed so much
7. I think the CR will go back to early 2000s
8. See it as an opportunity to gain additional skills , quals , a long long surfing trip whatever works for you
The reason this all Bullsh!t?
If they do the VR and still have a genuine surplus then they should be doing another round of VR and if that’s not affordable then start cutting from the bottom up, regardless of LWOP, just as the EA’s + IA intend. That bypass furphy is only there to get people off the books. Gun to the head- if you like. Just look at what American Airlines announced today. Bodies are going to get dropped everywhere.
If they do the VR and still have a genuine surplus then they should be doing another round of VR and if that’s not affordable then start cutting from the bottom up, regardless of LWOP, just as the EA’s + IA intend. That bypass furphy is only there to get people off the books. Gun to the head- if you like. Just look at what American Airlines announced today. Bodies are going to get dropped everywhere.
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normanton
Mate AIPA can challenge a possible LH CR all they like. What you don't understand, is that a genuine redundancy as defined by Fair Work is when a persons job doesn't need to be done by ANYONE. So if the redundant jobs are LH jobs then that is where the CR's will be made if at all. AIPA can't force the company to apply CR across the board simply because the company cannot legally do that . All AIPA can do is ask for a RIN and maybe more VR's to be offered across the pilot group and not just LH.
In so far as your anticipated LWOP get out of gaol card is concerned all I can say is best of luck.
Mate AIPA can challenge a possible LH CR all they like. What you don't understand, is that a genuine redundancy as defined by Fair Work is when a persons job doesn't need to be done by ANYONE. So if the redundant jobs are LH jobs then that is where the CR's will be made if at all. AIPA can't force the company to apply CR across the board simply because the company cannot legally do that . All AIPA can do is ask for a RIN and maybe more VR's to be offered across the pilot group and not just LH.
In so far as your anticipated LWOP get out of gaol card is concerned all I can say is best of luck.
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The latest email from AIPA suggests that if it moves to CR, it’ll be a long drawn out and expensive process.
The interesting part that will cause AIPA to lose its case is it refers to the LHEA for CR. The LHEA does not cover SHEA pilots. So provisions from the LHEA cannot be used to displace SH. Along with the FWA. Qantas would have done their homework and they don’t usually lose these types of disputes.
The interesting part that will cause AIPA to lose its case is it refers to the LHEA for CR. The LHEA does not cover SHEA pilots. So provisions from the LHEA cannot be used to displace SH. Along with the FWA. Qantas would have done their homework and they don’t usually lose these types of disputes.
FWA first responsibility is to protect the agreements negotiated between the employer and the employees, Fair works redundancy provisions are the minimum standard, negotiated outcomes are more binding and override those minimum standards.
If QF was to enter into Voluntary receivership then all bets are off in regards to all agreements. But if it gets to that there are bigger problems than just SH v LH and LWOP.
Last edited by OnceBitten; 17th Jul 2020 at 10:08. Reason: ++
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normanton
Mate AIPA can challenge a possible LH CR all they like. What you don't understand, is that a genuine redundancy as defined by Fair Work is when a persons job doesn't need to be done by ANYONE. So if the redundant jobs are LH jobs then that is where the CR's will be made if at all. AIPA can't force the company to apply CR across the board simply because the company cannot legally do that . All AIPA can do is ask for a RIN and maybe more VR's to be offered across the pilot group and not just LH.
In so far as your anticipated LWOP get out of gaol card is concerned all I can say is best of luck.
Mate AIPA can challenge a possible LH CR all they like. What you don't understand, is that a genuine redundancy as defined by Fair Work is when a persons job doesn't need to be done by ANYONE. So if the redundant jobs are LH jobs then that is where the CR's will be made if at all. AIPA can't force the company to apply CR across the board simply because the company cannot legally do that . All AIPA can do is ask for a RIN and maybe more VR's to be offered across the pilot group and not just LH.
In so far as your anticipated LWOP get out of gaol card is concerned all I can say is best of luck.
It's also precisely why bypassing junior crew for redundancy wont be able to be challenged either. For one its in the EBA, but let me provide a timeline:
1) Junior crew takes LWOP to avoid CR
2) Company announces CR
3) Company announces CR for pilots above junior crew on LWOP
4) More senior crew are made redundant because the position is a SURPLUS, and isn't needed to be done by anyone
5) Fast forward 12 months down the track, the junior crew return from LWOP
6) Junior crew either return to their original position (which is now available because there is no SURPLUS), they get stood down because there is no useful work, or they get given CR / sent back on LWOP
It's really that simple. I've said it before and I will say it again. Seniority will not save you. Think wisely.
Nunc est bibendum
Neither of your scenarios should be perceived as protecting a SH pilot from CR.
There are multiple ways this can all go down. Qantas has articulated it’s preferred route of people talking LWOP to avoid CR. That is just the first of a variety of different options that Qantas may pursue.
By taking LWOP you’re hoping that someone senior to you will be CR’d and you’ll beat them back to work. Again, I point out that if enough people take LWOP then NO ONE needs to be made redundant and you’re likely to come back to work in seniority anyway. IE you’ll be out of the company (no accrual of years of service for staff travel, long service leave trips, etc) for the exact length of time you would have been CR’d anyway.
I’m hopeful after some discussions I had today that the time line issue will be better resolved in the next week or so and S/Os will be able to make a more informed decision post the VR EOIs becoming binding.
Nunc est bibendum
1) Junior crew takes LWOP to avoid CR
2) Company announces CR
3) Company announces CR for pilots above junior crew on LWOP
4) More senior crew are made redundant because the position is a SURPLUS, and isn't needed to be done by anyone
5) Fast forward 12 months down the track, the junior crew return from LWOP
6) Junior crew either return to their original position (which is now available because there is no SURPLUS), they get stood down because there is no useful work, or they get given CR / sent back on LWOP
It's really that simple. I've said it before and I will say it again. Seniority will not save you. Think wisely.
QANTAS RECRUITMENT THREAD.
19th October, 2016, 17:06
I wondered why you had become so outspoken normanton. 47 posts until February this year. 389 since then covering the LH vote and now this. You're not in it for the good of the pilot body, you're in it for yourself.
There will be some very junior people on here (like yourself) who in these horrible times will unfortunately believe what you write, thinking you are something that you're not, and are looking out for them.
Post the all-knowing knowledge that you think you possess about the Award and it's legal aspects on Qrewroom. I note you haven't. So not only are you selfish, you're gutless.
19th October, 2016, 17:06
There will be some very junior people on here (like yourself) who in these horrible times will unfortunately believe what you write, thinking you are something that you're not, and are looking out for them.
Post the all-knowing knowledge that you think you possess about the Award and it's legal aspects on Qrewroom. I note you haven't. So not only are you selfish, you're gutless.
Last edited by mmmbop; 17th Jul 2020 at 10:34.
