QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
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Koizi
Thats not how it works. Wish you guys took the time to read your awards and the integration award of 1994.
The company can offer VR/ LWOP/ or Early Termination packages as they see fit to whomever they need to with whatever conditions they deem appropriate. They can then do a RIN as needed. The various awards don't have much by way of rules in these circumstances except for the fact that a RIN is quarantined within the applicable award.
ONLY IF AND WHEN they use CR do the rules change. The integration award takes precedence and redundancy starts at the bottom of the Q seniority list.
Your notion that all the affected pilots then have to do is go on LWOP to avoid redundancy is plain WRONG.
Thats not how it works. Wish you guys took the time to read your awards and the integration award of 1994.
The company can offer VR/ LWOP/ or Early Termination packages as they see fit to whomever they need to with whatever conditions they deem appropriate. They can then do a RIN as needed. The various awards don't have much by way of rules in these circumstances except for the fact that a RIN is quarantined within the applicable award.
ONLY IF AND WHEN they use CR do the rules change. The integration award takes precedence and redundancy starts at the bottom of the Q seniority list.
Your notion that all the affected pilots then have to do is go on LWOP to avoid redundancy is plain WRONG.
I’ll spell it out again:
Australia has stand down provisions, many other countries (inc NZ) do not.
The 190 surplus comes primarily from the 747 retirement and is the forecast surplus til mid 2022.
Unless something changes the remaining pilots are forecast to resume flying at some stage.
So they will remain stood down until that point.
It’s expected the 190 surplus will be primarily managed with VR.
No CR is expected from this process (that’s my opinion I should add)
The forecast on numbers was done til mid 2022, SH flying is expected to be back at normal well before then so no SH redundancies.
AJ previous comments few weeks ago regarding SH come back will be thrown out the window now. Domestic travel will be decimated past mid 2021 unless a vaccine is found. We are already seeing QLD rejection of certain NSW residents as the weeks gone NSW will more than double.
European short haul airlines are already back at 50% capacity by the first week of July, 3.5 months after the pandemic first hit in Europe and a few weeks after travel restrictions started being lifted.
Chinese domestic airlines are at about 80% capacity now compared to 6 months ago when the pandemic started and about two months after travel restrictions were lifted.
Japan’s domestic carriers are back at 66% capacity by end of the month, 80% in August and JAL expects to be at 100% in October.
These spikes will delay travel recovery in the domestic market by a matter of weeks not til the end of next year.
Of course that’s short haul only, solely long haul widebody carriers aren’t faring as well, EK is at 17% and SQ 5%
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A firm warning for anyone who thinks they are too senior to avoid CR. It will not save you. CR is coming and the vast majority below you will be taking LWOP to avoid it. Plan wisely.
I’m hearing you Dr, I’m not disagreeing but I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to realize that every time there is an outbreak or hotspot there will be lockdowns rumored VIC going to stage 4 tomorrow, states continuing to not allow NSW/VIC and ACT. I will be shocked if QLD don’t close to NSW residents by weeks end I hope I’m wrong.
Europe still do t have it under control however they see the bigger picture Australian Gov do not.
Europe still do t have it under control however they see the bigger picture Australian Gov do not.
Well that information is incorrect. The company will be using the clause in the EBA that allows them to bypass seniority for CR.
A firm warning for anyone who thinks they are too senior to avoid CR. It will not save you. CR is coming and the vast majority below you will be taking LWOP to avoid it. Plan wisely.
A firm warning for anyone who thinks they are too senior to avoid CR. It will not save you. CR is coming and the vast majority below you will be taking LWOP to avoid it. Plan wisely.
You are speculating, yet you tell it like you know. You are influencing people’s lives and livelihoods. Please be careful.
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I disagree. If anything I am trying to save the livelihood of many.
The bypass of seniority for CR will be covered for the duration of the LWOP. So if another surplus happens in 2022 as you said, you will again be passed over.
If your stance is not to take LWOP, I would say be careful of the advice you’re providing as it will affect the livelihood of many junior crew.
The bypass of seniority for CR will be covered for the duration of the LWOP. So if another surplus happens in 2022 as you said, you will again be passed over.
If your stance is not to take LWOP, I would say be careful of the advice you’re providing as it will affect the livelihood of many junior crew.
do people seriously think TLS, DT, DA, AS etc say this stuff about SH being excluded based on something they’ve made up? QF know exactly what they can do. They have done their homework. We all thought they would t get away with a lot of stuff over the years, but they have. If they say they can skip SH, skip LWOP etc etc, then they are saying based on immensely detailed research and legal consultation. It’s not like those blokes sit there (like we do) and read the various documents and then come up with an opinion. They have been fully briefed on what can and will be done. They (especially DT) would know EXACTLY what kind of a response their position would illicit, they know we all think it’s based on a global list etc. If they say it’s not, then until I see something from AIPA or a successful challenge in court, I have to assume they know what they are talking about. Anything else on here, or on QR is simply the best intended but uninformed opinion of someone who has read the award and has instantly become a lawyer who knows exactly what FWA will do. (Add that to financial expert, sexual god, sky god, disease control expert, microbiologist, marriage counsellor, divorce lawyer, real estate agent, property investor, sailing expert, epidemiologist and most importantly, a grammar expert (which I am not))
this is a fight that no one wants to have. Whatever the outcome, it won’t be pretty. Hopefully CR will be completely avoided.
this is a fight that no one wants to have. Whatever the outcome, it won’t be pretty. Hopefully CR will be completely avoided.
European short haul airlines are already back at 50% capacity by the first week of July, 3.5 months after the pandemic first hit in Europe and a few weeks after travel restrictions started being lifted.
Chinese domestic airlines are at about 80% capacity now compared to 6 months ago when the pandemic started and about two months after travel restrictions were lifted.
Japan’s domestic carriers are back at 66% capacity by end of the month, 80% in August and JAL expects to be at 100% in October.
do people seriously think TLS, DT, DA, AS etc say this stuff about SH being excluded based on something they’ve made up? QF know exactly what they can do. They have done their homework. We all thought they would t get away with a lot of stuff over the years, but they have. If they say they can skip SH, skip LWOP etc etc, then they are saying based on immensely detailed research and legal consultation. It’s not like those blokes sit there (like we do) and read the various documents and then come up with an opinion. They have been fully briefed on what can and will be done. They (especially DT) would know EXACTLY what kind of a response their position would illicit, they know we all think it’s based on a global list etc. If they say it’s not, then until I see something from AIPA or a successful challenge in court, I have to assume they know what they are talking about. Anything else on here, or on QR is simply the best intended but uninformed opinion of someone who has read the award and has instantly become a lawyer who knows exactly what FWA will do. (Add that to financial expert, sexual god, sky god, disease control expert, microbiologist, marriage counsellor, divorce lawyer, real estate agent, property investor, sailing expert, epidemiologist and most importantly, a grammar expert (which I am not))
this is a fight that no one wants to have. Whatever the outcome, it won’t be pretty. Hopefully CR will be completely avoided.
this is a fight that no one wants to have. Whatever the outcome, it won’t be pretty. Hopefully CR will be completely avoided.
Japans second wave of covid is nowhere near the same percentage as what Victoria is experiencing.
As of yesterday (13 July) Victoria has had a total of 3967 cases with 24 deaths. (population of 6.4 million)
Japan has had 21,868 cases with 982 deaths. (population of 126 million)
So Japan has twenty times the population of Victoria and forty times the deaths, five and a half times the cases.
https://www.health.gov.au/news/healt...d-case-numbers
https://www.worldometers.info/corona...country/japan/
Nunc est bibendum
For crying out loud, sit on your freaking hands until the dust from the VR and early retirement settles and let AIPA do their job of negotiating what variations may be considered. We haven’t even finished the G part of the decision making process and you’re jumping to ‘decide’.
Or alternatively, put in for LWOP immediately. Your call!
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I
For crying out loud, sit on your freaking hands until the dust from the VR and early retirement settles and let AIPA do their job of negotiating what variations may be considered. We haven’t even finished the G part of the decision making process and you’re jumping to ‘decide’.
For crying out loud, sit on your freaking hands until the dust from the VR and early retirement settles and let AIPA do their job of negotiating what variations may be considered. We haven’t even finished the G part of the decision making process and you’re jumping to ‘decide’.
Keg I always respect your opinion on this forum, but I feel your stance is easy to justify when you have seniority. If you were in your early 20s with 40 years left in your career at Qantas you would be looking at the situation differently.
I haven't submitted my LWOP application yet. As you alluded to I am still in the gather stage.
I don't agree with this. Apart from 330 freight there is no flying, and there won't be for a year. As mentioned in today's webinar the amount of people who take LWOP won't have an effect on CR as the company is seeing it as two separate issues, a long term surplus and a short-medium term surplus. By taking LWOP you avoid the CR chop if the early retirement / VR package doesn't get the numbers.
Nunc est bibendum
I’m sure if they send you a CR letter you’ll still have time to ask for LWOP and I’m pretty confident they’d grant it given that your LWOP request is a truck load cheaper than the 26 weeks they’re going to pay you under CR.
If you’re thinking LWOP in the hope that someone senior gets CR’d, and therefore you’ll come back off LWOP to fly before the CR pilot is re-employed, then you need to keep in mind that if enough pilots take LWOP then no one gets CR’d. Then as a LWOP pilot you’ll come back when they need you- which will effectively be the same time as they would have re-recruited you if you were CR’d anyway. Except now you didn’t get 6 months CR payout.
If you’re thinking LWOP in the hope that someone senior gets CR’d, and therefore you’ll come back off LWOP to fly before the CR pilot is re-employed, then you need to keep in mind that if enough pilots take LWOP then no one gets CR’d. Then as a LWOP pilot you’ll come back when they need you- which will effectively be the same time as they would have re-recruited you if you were CR’d anyway. Except now you didn’t get 6 months CR payout.
Anyone want to hazard a guess why LWOP applications to be ‘spared’ CR are REQUIRED before the VR and Early retirement program results are known? As Keg says above they want QF pilots to get to D before you consider the other letters. How do you that? Tell them it’s an incontrollable Fire 🔥
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normanton
First and foremost I acknowledge and respect your right to interpret the situation as you see it. Its just a little difficult to rationalise the concept of LWOP then no CR.
If the company makes LWOP available only to a select few then I dare say more senior pilots who have not been given that option would have something to say about it.
Tell me how that makes sense or how it would pass any test of reasonableness. The clause you refer to seems to give the company the OPTION to pass by a pilot. It is not mandated. No doubt you will get the proper advice from people in the know, as you should. All the best.
First and foremost I acknowledge and respect your right to interpret the situation as you see it. Its just a little difficult to rationalise the concept of LWOP then no CR.
If the company makes LWOP available only to a select few then I dare say more senior pilots who have not been given that option would have something to say about it.
Tell me how that makes sense or how it would pass any test of reasonableness. The clause you refer to seems to give the company the OPTION to pass by a pilot. It is not mandated. No doubt you will get the proper advice from people in the know, as you should. All the best.
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Then as a LWOP pilot you’ll come back when they need you- which will effectively be the same time as they would have re-recruited you if you were CR’d anyway. Except now you didn’t get 6 months CR payout.
6 moths CR payout gamble is nothing when we are talking about a 40 year career.
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Nunc est bibendum
Normanton, you’re not thinking this all the way through. If they send out a CR notice and you say to them ‘hang on a sec, instead of paying me 6 months pay, how about paying me nothing and I’ll just go LWOP until you tell me you need me’ which option do you reckon they’ll take? Mig3 is spot on here.
They have a bucket of money labelled ‘redundancy’. They’re happy to spend it for certain people- particularly those towards the end of their careers. They’d likely prefer to avoid spending it on someone they’re virtually guaranteed to bring back into the fold in just a couple of years time.
Of course Tino wants everyone to take LWOP so that his costs to $0. However If he expects me to be prepared to ‘jump now’ when he needs me then he needs to understand that he has to pay a ‘retainer’ for that privilege.
They have a bucket of money labelled ‘redundancy’. They’re happy to spend it for certain people- particularly those towards the end of their careers. They’d likely prefer to avoid spending it on someone they’re virtually guaranteed to bring back into the fold in just a couple of years time.
Of course Tino wants everyone to take LWOP so that his costs to $0. However If he expects me to be prepared to ‘jump now’ when he needs me then he needs to understand that he has to pay a ‘retainer’ for that privilege.