QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
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Actually it’s A or Q list with two different provisions under two different EBAs.
So from me reading it a senior pilot in Longhaul can be made redundant over a junior pilot in shorthaul. Simply because you cannot displace someone under a different award.
It’d be like a Qantas pilot displacing a Jetstar pilot to CR.
Of course if guys want to complain about that, they were senior and could have gone to short haul.
Anyway it’s pie in the sky stuff. With stand down, jobkeeper and perhaps a few tweaks to entitlements during standown, I don’t think we will see a single Qantas pilot exit the business who doesn’t want to.
So from me reading it a senior pilot in Longhaul can be made redundant over a junior pilot in shorthaul. Simply because you cannot displace someone under a different award.
It’d be like a Qantas pilot displacing a Jetstar pilot to CR.
Of course if guys want to complain about that, they were senior and could have gone to short haul.
Anyway it’s pie in the sky stuff. With stand down, jobkeeper and perhaps a few tweaks to entitlements during standown, I don’t think we will see a single Qantas pilot exit the business who doesn’t want to.
I agree with you in regards to RINs and displacements that these do not apply across the Hauls but mainline redundancies do. I also agree with your sentiment that with standown, Jobkeeper and VRs we won't see a crew member depart that doesn't want to.
BSM, Read the Integration award 16 (e) this relates to redundancies across mainline and states "vacancies resulting from the re-shuffling of positions consequent upon retrenchment shall be filled in accordance with the provisions for filling vacancies set out in this award and other applicable awards/agreements". Basically meaning in the whole context of section 16 relating to redundancies for those A and Q pilots above the Y, and below the Y relates to all remaining Q pilots in seniority. Vacancies that are created by these provisions will be subsequently advertised to be filled in seniority order from the remaining pool of pilots. So redundancies across mainline are done in seniority and are not dependant on the Haul according to the IA.
I agree with you in regards to RINs and displacements that these do not apply across the Hauls but mainline redundancies do. I also agree with your sentiment that with standown, Jobkeeper and VRs we won't see a crew member depart that doesn't want to.
I agree with you in regards to RINs and displacements that these do not apply across the Hauls but mainline redundancies do. I also agree with your sentiment that with standown, Jobkeeper and VRs we won't see a crew member depart that doesn't want to.
section E refers that if for instance a pilot is retrenched and that position becomes a consequential vacancy, It shall be filled in accordance with seniority. For instance if 10 787 SOs are made redundant, those positions if required will be filled from the top down. It doesn’t refer to jumping from long haul to short haul or vice versa.
I read it more as those positions are filled in order of seniority from those that are left, not the retrenchment list.
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Well if what is stated above is true , then moving to SH straight after joining was a wise move
If you assume QF redundancy numbers similar % to AirNZ, BA - maybe 30% , but not quite the disaster level of Air Canada
then about 750 , that takes you back to LH hires circa 2005 to 2007 era doesn't it ?
You may as well wait for a CR as it is a much better deal in terms of quantity of payout & certainty of return
Why would you take a lesser value VR ?
If you assume QF redundancy numbers similar % to AirNZ, BA - maybe 30% , but not quite the disaster level of Air Canada
then about 750 , that takes you back to LH hires circa 2005 to 2007 era doesn't it ?
You may as well wait for a CR as it is a much better deal in terms of quantity of payout & certainty of return
Why would you take a lesser value VR ?
Domestic, Tasman and Pacific look to be positive for Jetstar OZ and NZ for a quick Ian recovery. 787 and international such as Bali look weak. No rumours of redundancies yet, they were undercrewed anyway and will likely manage things througH LWOP, continued stand down, part time etc.
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Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong and China along with all of the Pacific will back open by the end of the year. The 787’s and 330’s will be busy again. Also you’d think QF will have around 80% of the domestic market.
You can think what you want but International travellers won’t be allowed back into the country without a 14 day isolation at their own cost for a loooooong time yet. There are not going to be to many rushing for that deal. The governments haven’t done all this just to start from scratch again. If Qantas don’t downsize they will be the only major airline in the world to achieve it. You can toss around percentages of the market, but that market won’t have anywhere near the number of passengers it used to...there not allowed into the county.
IN 2018 there were 8.5 million international visitors, it was projected to hit 10 million in 2020. There are an awful lot of domestic trips that they won’t be taking now.
IN 2018 there were 8.5 million international visitors, it was projected to hit 10 million in 2020. There are an awful lot of domestic trips that they won’t be taking now.
Last edited by ozbiggles; 12th Jun 2020 at 06:58.
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BSM, Read the Integration award 16 (e) this relates to redundancies across mainline and states "vacancies resulting from the re-shuffling of positions consequent upon retrenchment shall be filled in accordance with the provisions for filling vacancies set out in this award and other applicable awards/agreements". Basically meaning in the whole context of section 16 relating to redundancies for those A and Q pilots above the Y, and below the Y relates to all remaining Q pilots in seniority. Vacancies that are created by these provisions will be subsequently advertised to be filled in seniority order from the remaining pool of pilots. So redundancies across mainline are done in seniority and are not dependant on the Haul according to the IA.
I agree with you in regards to RINs and displacements that these do not apply across the Hauls but mainline redundancies do. I also agree with your sentiment that with standown, Jobkeeper and VRs we won't see a crew member depart that doesn't want to.
I agree with you in regards to RINs and displacements that these do not apply across the Hauls but mainline redundancies do. I also agree with your sentiment that with standown, Jobkeeper and VRs we won't see a crew member depart that doesn't want to.
It’s not talked about much but since the 767 RIN the firms opinion has been that SH/73 is quarantined from both RIN and CR. The outcome of any subsequent challenge to that is of course unknown. It is also worth remembering that opinion cuts both ways if there were to ever be an over supply domestically.
You can think what you want but International travellers won’t be allowed back into the country without a 14 day isolation at their own cost for a loooooong time yet. There are not going to be to many rushing for that deal. The governments haven’t done all this just to start from scratch again. If Qantas don’t downsize they will be the only major airline in the world to achieve it. You can toss around percentages of the market, but that market won’t have anywhere near the number of passengers it used to...there not allowed into the county.
IN 2018 there were 8.5 million international visitors, it was projected to hit 10 million in 2020. There are an awful lot of domestic trips that they won’t be taking now.
IN 2018 there were 8.5 million international visitors, it was projected to hit 10 million in 2020. There are an awful lot of domestic trips that they won’t be taking now.
Qantas has a lot of flexibility with its fleet, over say a giant A380/777 operator or the like.
So in reality, Qantas will have a similar network with similar frequencies to what it had before. It’ll just fly smaller aircraft.
You can think what you want but International travellers won’t be allowed back into the country without a 14 day isolation at their own cost for a loooooong time yet. There are not going to be to many rushing for that deal. The governments haven’t done all this just to start from scratch again. If Qantas don’t downsize they will be the only major airline in the world to achieve it. You can toss around percentages of the market, but that market won’t have anywhere near the number of passengers it used to...there not allowed into the county.
IN 2018 there were 8.5 million international visitors, it was projected to hit 10 million in 2020. There are an awful lot of domestic trips that they won’t be taking now.
IN 2018 there were 8.5 million international visitors, it was projected to hit 10 million in 2020. There are an awful lot of domestic trips that they won’t be taking now.
The best evidence we have right now is China where domestic flights are no up to 80% of pre-covid levels.
Except where there used to be 380s/747s, there will be 787s. Where there used to be 330s, there will be 737s. Where there used to be 737s, there will be 717s, where there used to be 717s, there will be Q400s etc etc.
Qantas has a lot of flexibility with its fleet, over say a giant A380/777 operator or the like.
So in reality, Qantas will have a similar network with similar frequencies to what it had before. It’ll just fly smaller aircraft.
Qantas has a lot of flexibility with its fleet, over say a giant A380/777 operator or the like.
So in reality, Qantas will have a similar network with similar frequencies to what it had before. It’ll just fly smaller aircraft.
Large aircraft won’t be required unless of course these “travel bubbles” eventuate. I’m hypothesising here, but if say Thailand and Australia form a bubble, you may need a 380 running to Bangkok because the demand is centralised on a few specific approved countries and it’s the only place people can travel. Likewise Japan, Singapore etc. And then potentially use the 787 for long thin routes to countries in Europe like Austria and Germany.
QF obviously need to shift away from UK and US destinations, their traditional heartland. Might involve some loss making routes for a while but you can’t just sit on your hands forever (with aircraft sitting on the ground) and do nothing.
Qantas group profit drivers are domestic and QFF. Obviously international traffic feeds into domestic operations so I’m not trying to discredit the role of International. Qantas own most their fleet. They obviously have debt to service so there may be a balance where a bit of extra revenue is a good thing even if it is loss making. I suspect the scope for this is very small, and it’s far more likely the A380 operation will take another year off with their crews remaining stood down.
Jefferies Investment Bank have assumed QF wages bill next financial year will be over 50% down from FY19. They have assumed the government will be very slow opening international borders even once a vaccine is developed.
Leave accrual for 1500 long haul pilots whilst stood down cost the company about $30M/yr. That is the redundancy payout for more than 400 juniors.
There are tough decisions ahead. I’d like to believe no pilot who doesn’t want to leave the company will be forced to. It is becoming clear though that keeping the piloting family together is going to be dependent on our leadership.
Jefferies Investment Bank have assumed QF wages bill next financial year will be over 50% down from FY19. They have assumed the government will be very slow opening international borders even once a vaccine is developed.
Leave accrual for 1500 long haul pilots whilst stood down cost the company about $30M/yr. That is the redundancy payout for more than 400 juniors.
There are tough decisions ahead. I’d like to believe no pilot who doesn’t want to leave the company will be forced to. It is becoming clear though that keeping the piloting family together is going to be dependent on our leadership.
You can think what you want but International travellers won’t be allowed back into the country without a 14 day isolation at their own cost for a loooooong time yet. There are not going to be to many rushing for that deal. The governments haven’t done all this just to start from scratch again. If Qantas don’t downsize they will be the only major airline in the world to achieve it. You can toss around percentages of the market, but that market won’t have anywhere near the number of passengers it used to...there not allowed into the county.
IN 2018 there were 8.5 million international visitors, it was projected to hit 10 million in 2020. There are an awful lot of domestic trips that they won’t be taking now.
IN 2018 there were 8.5 million international visitors, it was projected to hit 10 million in 2020. There are an awful lot of domestic trips that they won’t be taking now.
If quarantine controlled international arrivals are allowed here by northern hemisphere winter, Australia will be a very popular place for those with money to stay here for 3-4mths.
I have been talking with some expat UK friends that live here and they are really hoping to bring parents and family here to escape the northern winter and potential second/third wave. They said everyone they talk to are thinking the same thing, even getting family out here permanently as soon as possible.
Australia is in for a post COVID boom the likes of post WWII.
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Leave 1500 stood down for $30 million, or
Make 400 redundant for $30 million.
400 redundant still leaves 1100 stood down at a cost of about $20-25 million...
So 400 redundancies and 1100 stood down is $50+ million.
Very rough numbers and plenty of variables but prolonged stand down makes sense to me over deep cuts.
Make 400 redundant for $30 million.
400 redundant still leaves 1100 stood down at a cost of about $20-25 million...
So 400 redundancies and 1100 stood down is $50+ million.
Very rough numbers and plenty of variables but prolonged stand down makes sense to me over deep cuts.
Absolutely Captain! Remember that when the company come asking to save some of that $30M. They want flexibility from us to reduce costs, but what do we want in return? Did someone whisper the Tasman?
Usually I’d agree with you...however, whenever ratified EBA’s are up for temporary amendment it certainly is a negotiation. We have savings they want that are currently unavailable.