QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by SandyPalms

Webinar called for tomorrow. They only seem to have them when something has been announced. Any rumours from today’s meeting?

Nothing unusual, webinars have been held once per week or more since this all started.

[ozbiggles]

Webinars shouldn’t scare you, announcements to the asx should (no there hasn’t been one announced today).

[dragon man]

Originally Posted by boundary

Rumour of 5000 jobs to be cut - announcement before the end of June.

I would say that’s highly likely.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Originally Posted by ozbiggles

Webinars shouldn’t scare you, announcements to the asx should (no there hasn’t been one announced today).

Bingo. You can include the rumours in this forum among the things that shouldn’t scare you.

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Originally Posted by SandyPalms

Webinar called for tomorrow. They only seem to have them when something has been announced. Any rumours from today’s meeting?

Rubbish. They’ve been held almost weekly. With the same questions asked and dodged over and over.

[Ollie Onion]

Originally Posted by boundary

Rumour of 5000 jobs to be cut - announcement before the end of June.

to be honest, in a company of 30,000 employees an initial target of 5,000 is not as bad as it could be in current circumstances. Many will be saved by consultation and efficiencies. Yes, I am potentially one of the jobs on the line but I think anyone suggesting Qantas will come through this without redundancies need to be a bit more realistic. It seems that Airlines across the world are suggesting 30% headcount reductions when their main business is international ops. So 15-20% for Qantas group with its domestic ops may be pretty close to the mark. Goodluck everyone.

[ozbiggles]

Legend has it that posters on pprune using their ‘first’ post to shock and awe generally work in sewage farms. If said person has the real info then they have just released market sensitive information which comes with a hefty fine.

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by Ollie Onion

to be honest, in a company of 30,000 employees an initial target of 5,000 is not as bad as it could be in current circumstances. Many will be saved by consultation and efficiencies.

In 2014 it was a very similar number. 30,000 employees were reduced down to 25,000. This was mostly in non-operational back office roles. It was only a small number of pilots who took VR. But no CR was even close to being needed.

This time if the numbers are similar I’d imagine the surplus of pilots would probably be taken care of with expected upcoming retirements and the existing stand down arrangements. But obviously if there is no international flying for a while and no 4 engined flying for a little longer than that there’s going to be an excess in a lot of other roles that don’t require the long lead in training times pilots need. There’ll probably be a cut in international cabin crew, along with other roles supporting international. The need to find efficiencies in hard economic times means a lot of middle management positions will go.

[ozbiggles]

So Qantas will keep all its pilots while the rest of the worlds airlines can’t/don’t keep theirs. I’d like to see that, I really would. But It’s not going to happen. But I guess AirNZ parking up its 777 fleet in the desert isn’t enough of a hint. 2014 was a relatively predictable economic cyclic thing. This isn’t that.

[dr dre]

Originally Posted by ozbiggles

So Qantas will keep all its pilots while the rest of the worlds airlines can’t/don’t keep theirs. I’d like to see that, I really would. But It’s not going to happen. But I guess AirNZ parking up its 777 fleet in the desert isn’t enough of a hint. 2014 was a relatively predictable economic cyclic thing. This isn’t that.

The key difference between Australian and New Zealand IR law is that Australia has provisions for unpaid stand downs, NZ doesn’t. In the US they have a sort of similar thing called furlough.

[JPJP]

Originally Posted by dr dre

The key difference between Australian and New Zealand IR law is that Australia has provisions for unpaid stand downs, NZ doesn’t. In the US they have a sort of similar thing called furlough.

No. A furlough means you have been made redundant. You have no job, and no connection to your previous company, other than the right of return in seniority order. If and when the company requires more pilots.

Thankfully none of the majors in the U.S have enacted the abhorrent actions of Qantas management. Pilots are being paid, Early retirement and long term paid leaves are being offered. The extent and scope are company dependent.

Originally Posted by dr dre

means a lot of middle management positions will go.

Do you think they’ll keep you ? Or will you be ‘made efficient’ ?

[Green.Dot]

Originally Posted by JPJP

Thankfully none of the majors in the U.S have enacted the abhorrent actions of Qantas management. Pilots are being paid,

You people won’t stop will you. Im not sticking up for management but don’t you suspect if pilots were getting a full wage then QF would already be an Air NZ with a third of its pilots SACKED? I’ll take my JobKeeper in the meantime with a long term view of going back- hopefully...

there seem to be a lot of people who are still “f$&k the company at all costs” yeah that’s a great plan in the COVID world. Sadly you won’t be going back to your 550k Quad Skipper wage and if you think you are, you are delusional 🙄

[Australopithecus]

The US airlines are constrained by their government aid packages that prohibit furloughs until October. After that though most industry observers are expecting wholesale lay-offs and downgrades. Seniority systems in North America require LIFO and open bidding for every position which of course causes a training cascade. Those obligations are written into contracts that did not anticipate a pandemic so there may be airlines that seek relief in the courts including Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see our government extend job keeper for the airline and tourism sectors.

[JPJP]

Originally Posted by Green.Dot

You people won’t stop will you.

Originally Posted by Green.Dot

Im not sticking up for management but don’t you suspect if pilots were getting a full wage then QF would already be an Air NZ with a third of its pilots SACKED?

Uhhhh ? A third of Air NZ pilots have been sacked ? No.

Originally Posted by Green.Dot

I’ll take my JobKeeper.

Enjoy. Because you know Alan won’t use any of the companies profits to pay employees in the hard times. That money is used to pay himself, and for stock buy backs (pay himself again). ‘No work to do, so no sick pay’- What a perverse, disgusting way to treat employees.

Below is an example of not immediately throwing everyone under the bus, also known as ‘stand down’ (at Qantas). Still paying employees and still looking after each other.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielr...ival-airlines/

[JPJP]

Originally Posted by Australopithecus

The US airlines are constrained by their government aid packages that prohibit furloughs until October. After that though most industry observers are expecting wholesale lay-offs and downgrades. Seniority systems in North America require LIFO and open bidding for every position which of course causes a training cascade. Those obligations are written into contracts that did not anticipate a pandemic so there may be airlines that seek relief in the courts including Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see our government extend job keeper for the airline and tourism sectors.

Most of that is fairly accurate. However, it would depend on the airline - A large single fleet airline can furlough with almost zero training churn and very little cost. United and Southwest being examples of massive churn vs. none.

Hopefully the paid leaves and early paid retirement will take care of the flex. Although, if an airlines management decides to use this as an opportunity to slash and burn (British Airways) then anything’s possible. It’ll depend on culture, money and the level of sociopathy at the top. Add the latter, and an Irishman; then it may be ugly. Good luck to BA and Qantas

[MickG0105]

Originally Posted by JPJP

No. A furlough means you have been made redundant. You have no job, and no connection to your previous company, other than the right of return in seniority order.

That's complete and utter nonsense. Furloughs in the US under the Fair Labor Standards Act is essentially the same thing as stand-downs in Australia under the Fair Work Act. You are most assuredly not made redundant when you are furloughed.

​​​​​https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fac...flsa-furloughs

Originally Posted by JPJP

Uhhhh ? A third of Air NZ pilots have been sacked ? No.

Uhhhh? Yes.
Air New Zealand announces 3500 job losses due to Covid-19 pandemic
WED, MAY 20 • SOURCE: 1 NEWS
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-...id-19-pandemic

Air New Zealand are sacking 3500 employees out of a workforce of about 10,500 - that's a third. Do you think they're getting rid of everyone other than pilots?

[Australopithecus]

Once again...the US airlines cannot stand down employees until October. That was a fundamental condition of the aid they got in April. The rest of that Forbes puff piece is at complete odds with reality. At least until there is widespread inoculation the US isn’t going to see returns to 2019 flying. That said, I have always been an admirer of Southwest's relationship with their employees.

[Arctaurus]

Just look at what's happening in the middle east carriers at the moment - large numbers of pilots who thought they had jobs for life, are now out of work.

Australia can't be immune from this. A lot will hinge on how jobkeeper is treated after September.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Originally Posted by Arctaurus

Just look at what's happening in the middle east carriers at the moment - large numbers of pilots who thought they had jobs for life, are now out of work.

Australia can't be immune from this. A lot will hinge on how jobkeeper is treated after September.

how does job keeper effect this?

Don’t forget, QF group announced the stand downs (march 19th) before jobkeeper was announced by the government (March 30th).

After September, staff could simply remain stood down with no government subsidy, as was the initial intent of the stand downs.

However, there seems to be a good chance Jobkeeper will be extended for aviation beyond September, as the government moves towards a more industry selective approach to the scheme.

[Arctaurus]

However, there seems to be a good chance Jobkeeper will be extended for aviation beyond September, as the government moves towards a more industry selective approach to the scheme.

You've answered your own question. Might be wrong, but I would have thought airlines will be more likely to use stand down provisions rather than redundancies if jobkeeper stays for aviation.