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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 27th Aug 2020, 01:30
  #1641 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Sydney
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My opinion:

As a matter of construction, 15.10.4 determines notice period of redundancy. 15.10.5 determines minimum entitlements for redundancy. The two items are not the same. If 26 weeks pay was the minimum entitlement, it would be stated in 15.10.5. Moreover, 15.10.4(b) states that by agreement with an individual pilot, a notice of redundancy may be paid out... The word 'may' means that the payment in lieu of notice is discretionary (that is, it is not an entitlement) - so long as the parties agree.

So, a pilot who's minimum redundancy entitlement under 15.10.5 is 4 weeks would have to be given 22 weeks notice (or by agreement be paid 22 weeks notice in lieu). In 'normal' circumstances when the stand down provisions were not in force, that would amount to 26 weeks of pay. If the pilot is stood down, that notice period should attract whatever job keeper minimum payment is in force at the time.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 02:11
  #1642 (permalink)  
 
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Regarding the last 3 posts,

Guys, VR has met itís achieved targets. That and retirements will take care of the forecast long term surplus.

It makes no sense to discuss the finer details of CR now. It is not on the table, and there no plans for it to be put on the table. All you are doing by continually mentioning it is inducing more fear into a group that already has enough stress to deal with.


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Old 27th Aug 2020, 02:22
  #1643 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post

Guys, VR has met itís achieved targets. That and retirements will take care of the forecast long term surplus.
Is that the company's opinion or the unions opinion?

They wanted 196. They got 188. The VR was under-subscribed.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 02:25
  #1644 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dr dre View Post
Regarding the last 3 posts,

Guys, VR has met itís achieved targets. That and retirements will take care of the forecast long term surplus.

It makes no sense to discuss the finer details of CR now. It is not on the table, and there no plans for it to be put on the table. All you are doing by continually mentioning it is inducing more fear into a group that already has enough stress to deal with.
+1 for this.

Tino said yesterday (purely his opinion), that he would be utterly astonished if CR was needed from here.

That doesnt rule it out, just that even from the out going International CEO itís very, very unlikely. They seem to sincerely believe there is significant pent up demand, and as markets eventually open back up everyone remaining will eventually be needed in the short to medium term.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 02:36
  #1645 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by normanton View Post

They wanted 196. They got 188. The VR was under-subscribed.
No it wasn’t. 8 numbers out of 2200 in the employee group is negligible. In 2014 the VR program was far lower subscribed than this year but management deemed that, combined with LWOP, that was enough.

This year they got to within 4% of the target. Someone will be rewarded for that.

You bringing that point up continuously is like those who mention CR continuously. I’d suggest you take the advice you probably got in your first flying lessons in a Cessna about how to solve a problem - “look at the big picture”. Don't get bogged down in minute detail. From a big picture perspective the issue of surplus crew has been sorted out.

Last edited by dr dre; 27th Aug 2020 at 03:41.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 03:29
  #1646 (permalink)  
 
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Each to their own , I would believe that CR was no longer on the table if company put something in writing to AIPA

The risk for me would be when you might return after CR and what you would be paid at that point in time , seems
certain year one & as an SO on a salary scale of $100 to $115 (if QF orders 350). Also LOL complexities for when you are not a QF employee

QF don't tend to telegraph punches for CR , they didn't for 6000 who have been made CR to date
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 03:33
  #1647 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
Each to their own , I would believe that CR was no longer on the table if company put something in writing to AIPA

The risk for me would be when you might return after CR and what you would be paid at that point in time , seems
certain year one & as an SO on a salary scale of $100 to $115 (if QF orders 350). Also LOL complexities for when you are not a QF employee

QF don't tend to telegraph punches for CR , they didn't for 6000 who have been made CR to date
FFS - years of service for pay are based on your initial SO check to line date. If you work for QF, how do you not know this?

What's the agenda here? If you want to take LWOP or whatever that's your decision. If you're trying to start a pile on, at least wait for the EBA variations where a majority vote is needed.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 03:45
  #1648 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
QF don't tend to telegraph punches for CR , they didn't for 6000 who have been made CR to date
Totally misleading. 6000 employees have not been made Compulsory Redundant. There are up to 6000 positions across the group that will be decreased over time. This will be acheived through VR, LWOP, Jobshare, Part Time, Natural Attrition, Re-Deployment, Parts of the Business being sold etc and yes some employees will unfortunately be subject to Compulsory Redundancy. But I would say they would be in the minority. VR programs all across the group have generated significant interest. There will be no CR in the pilot group. So again, stop this fearmongering nonsense.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 05:14
  #1649 (permalink)  
 
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How many of the 188 were pilots the company actually wants to go ie. 747/380? How many were off the 330/787 who would presumably be amongst the first stood up if and when international flying resumes?
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 05:59
  #1650 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DirectAnywhere View Post
How many of the 188 were pilots the company actually wants to go ie. 747/380? How many were off the 330/787 who would presumably be amongst the first stood up if and when international flying resumes?
Not sure.
An educated guess would say the majority who said yes to the package would be older and closer to retirement, therefore more likely to be senior, therefore pilots on the senior aircraft, the 380 or 747.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 08:53
  #1651 (permalink)  
 
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"There will be no CR in the Pilot Group"

Well that might be your opinion I would believe it when I saw it in writing from the company

Pay increments from date of CTL of SO
  • Nothing in the CR section says you will be re-employed with years of service credited or years of service are credited from the first time you CTL as SO in your first time as a QF employee
  • Different to return from Medical termination where it is specifically stated "years of serviced credited"
  • Two very different things , CR hasn't been done before so no way to anticipate how company will do it. Do you really think they will say "Welcome back Mate , this is all wonderful to have you back , so just to make you feel better we will credit your years of service all those years ago" - I would believe they will do that if it is put in writing by someone very senior (& I am not talking about a Pilot)
Even if your years are credited (which I doubt) , & QF order the A350 , well that means when you return you will be on the new SO scales for Airbus, which max out at $115 an hour (today's rates). So clearly a massive pay decrease will occur. The AIPA should have insisted on a clause , that wouldn't be applied to anyone on the books today - missed that

No agenda here, just the things that I think are important to consider. You have a different view well goodluck to you

I think the fear mongering has been people suggesting people being turned away when they return after a fixed term lwop

CR is indefinite & in my view you will be busted back to year 1 payrates & on the B scale SO table if the A350 is ordered

Enough from me , seems like plenty here know everything have a ability to look into the future & state with certainty what will happen
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 10:20
  #1652 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
"There will be no CR in the Pilot Group"

Well that might be your opinion I would believe it when I saw it in writing from the company
There isnít a single business on the planet that will tell itís employees in writing that there is zero chance they will ever be made compulsorily redundant.

We make informed judgements from the information we know at the time, with reasoning to make an educated judgement about the future. Management have announced a 3 year recovery plan with a final pilot number that VR and retirements have reduced the surplus down to that final number. From the information we know today no further redundancies should be necessary.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 10:32
  #1653 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Street garbage View Post
The level of FUD from Telfer/ Configfull/ Normanton and especially Xeptu astounds me, reminds me of QF management during LHEA 10 "negotiations"
Anything on here from those four is pure speculation, and at worse, pure bs.
That's only because it's not what you want to hear and this time management hold all the cards, yes there's some bs in it why not, so is everyone else's opinion, it becomes difficult to take anyone seriously, which doesn't come as any surprise. I don't believe you guys realise how deep the shit is you are standing in. With LH at 20% of precovid and SH at 50% at best, blind freddy can see that 180 redundancies isn't going to do it. Management can do what ever they want. If you can't do anything about it, what makes you think your union can. Any action they take sets one group of pilot members against another group of pilot members within the same company, they won't do that, their hands are tied and management know it.
I'm sorry to be blunt, but you asked for it.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 10:38
  #1654 (permalink)  
 
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So what, Xeptu? You donít think we know that? Whatís your point, and why do you need to keep repeating it? It sucks at the moment. Iím concerned for the future for both me and my 3 kids, but I donít understand why you are even posting here. At least Normanton has a purpose, people may not like his opinion, but at least he actually says something. You on the other hand, well, f#$ked if I know. Go away, please.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 10:54
  #1655 (permalink)  
 
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And I feel your pain, I mean that. I'll step out, goodluck to you.

P.S our very own sitting health minister made reference to the Industrial Court tonight on telly, so I'm not alone in being a bit behind the times. At least I'm retired and been away from it in a while.

Last edited by Xeptu; 27th Aug 2020 at 13:26.
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Old 27th Aug 2020, 12:28
  #1656 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
With LH at 20% of precovid and SH at 50% at best, blind freddy can see that 180 redundancies isn't going to do it. Management can do what ever they want.
I feel like my responsibility on this thread is now the Xeptu fact checker, kind of like facebook and twitter are doing now.

Where did you pull these numbers from? Reference? Nope? Log off.
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 01:17
  #1657 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cirressna View Post
I feel like my responsibility on this thread is now the Xeptu fact checker, kind of like facebook and twitter are doing now.

Where did you pull these numbers from? Reference? Nope? Log off.
Plus one.
Yep. Xeptu, International is less 5%, Domestic at 18%. You are not even close. All you have is FUD. Go away, you are just embarrasing yourself with your lies, inaccuracies and scaremongering. Go and find a hobby.
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 01:53
  #1658 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ExtraShot View Post
+1 for this.

Tino said yesterday (purely his opinion), that he would be utterly astonished if CR was needed from here.

That doesnt rule it out, just that even from the out going International CEO itís very, very unlikely. They seem to sincerely believe there is significant pent up demand, and as markets eventually open back up everyone remaining will eventually be needed in the short to medium term.
That is because Tino and QF believe the A380/B787 pilots can be stood down long after any COVID restrictions are removed. They will happily sit by the phone for up to 3yrs and then one day QF will ring and the very next day they will be turning up for work. What they fail to acknowledge is that subdued demand beyond COVID becomes a commercial decision and stand down legislation doesn't apply.

They don't think fed up pilots will begin to take legal action to determine exactly when it moves from a restriction of supply to one of demand and hence stand down provisions can't be applied. Is it when quarantine restrictions are completely removed, is it when there is a vaccine, a travel vaccine certificate?
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 02:10
  #1659 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Street garbage View Post
Plus one.
Yep. Xeptu, International is less 5%, Domestic at 18%. You are not even close. All you have is FUD. Go away, you are just embarrasing yourself with your lies, inaccuracies and scaremongering. Go and find a hobby.
Since your post is directed to me personally.

Feb 20 AJ's statement regarding forecast expectation. For which the redundancy forecast is predicated.

Jun 04 AJ's statement revised forecast expectation. None of which happened.

Where you're supposed to be end July verses where you are now. It appears my lies and inaccuracies are less frightening than yours.
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 02:18
  #1660 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Xeptu View Post
Since your post is directed to me personally.

Feb 20 AJ's statement regarding forecast expectation. For which the redundancy forecast is predicated.

Jun 04 AJ's statement revised forecast expectation. None of which happened.

Where you're supposed to be end July verses where you are now. It appears my lies and inaccuracies are less frightening than yours.
Go and re-read your post. You said International at 20%, Domestic at 50%. At least when you write on here at least be close to the truth.
Why are you coming on here with your doom and gloom? Do you thing junior QF crew are under enormous stress, and then people like you come on here and spread your lies is going to do any good?
You are as bad as QF Management during EA negotiations.
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