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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 17th Jul 2020, 11:05
  #901 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 37
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Originally Posted by tenretni View Post
normanton

Mate AIPA can challenge a possible LH CR all they like. What you don't understand, is that a genuine redundancy as defined by Fair Work is when a persons job doesn't need to be done by ANYONE. So if the redundant jobs are LH jobs then that is where the CR's will be made if at all. AIPA can't force the company to apply CR across the board simply because the company cannot legally do that . All AIPA can do is ask for a RIN and maybe more VR's to be offered across the pilot group and not just LH.

In so far as your anticipated LWOP get out of gaol card is concerned all I can say is best of luck.
Where have I once said that AIPA would win a case against the company? I actually don't think they will win the case for the exact reasons you have described.

It's also precisely why bypassing junior crew for redundancy wont be able to be challenged either. For one its in the EBA, but let me provide a timeline:

1) Junior crew takes LWOP to avoid CR
2) Company announces CR
3) Company announces CR for pilots above junior crew on LWOP
4) More senior crew are made redundant because the position is a SURPLUS, and isn't needed to be done by anyone
5) Fast forward 12 months down the track, the junior crew return from LWOP
6) Junior crew either return to their original position (which is now available because there is no SURPLUS), they get stood down because there is no useful work, or they get given CR / sent back on LWOP

It's really that simple. I've said it before and I will say it again. Seniority will not save you. Think wisely.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 11:16
  #902 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by Blueskymine View Post
Basically you canít move someone out of a role and fill it with someone else, and make the former redundant. Which is why as much as we donít like it. Shorthaul is safe.
They wonít fill the vacated SH F/O role with Ďsomeone elseí. Itíll be left blank and empty. There will be enough pilots left in SH to cover the planned flying for at least the next 12 months. Perhaps as much as 18 months depending on vaccine production. Certainly long enough to start bringing pilots back on from CR.

Originally Posted by Blueskymine View Post
...do you think Qantas is going to spend 2 years retraining all the long haul guys to Shorthaul? By the time theyíre all typed and checked out, long haul will be back.
No, I donít. I suspect Qantas will prefer to leave those crew stood down or to heavy crew the A330 (short conversion to the A330 for the 50 or so A380 Captains remaining after the VR). Short conversion back to A380 or the A350 is coming down range at some stage close to your time frame.

Neither of your scenarios should be perceived as protecting a SH pilot from CR.

There are multiple ways this can all go down. Qantas has articulated itís preferred route of people talking LWOP to avoid CR. That is just the first of a variety of different options that Qantas may pursue.

By taking LWOP youíre hoping that someone senior to you will be CRíd and youíll beat them back to work. Again, I point out that if enough people take LWOP then NO ONE needs to be made redundant and youíre likely to come back to work in seniority anyway. IE youíll be out of the company (no accrual of years of service for staff travel, long service leave trips, etc) for the exact length of time you would have been CRíd anyway.

Iím hopeful after some discussions I had today that the time line issue will be better resolved in the next week or so and S/Os will be able to make a more informed decision post the VR EOIs becoming binding.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 11:20
  #903 (permalink)  
Keg

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Originally Posted by normanton View Post

1) Junior crew takes LWOP to avoid CR
2) Company announces CR
3) Company announces CR for pilots above junior crew on LWOP
4) More senior crew are made redundant because the position is a SURPLUS, and isn't needed to be done by anyone
5) Fast forward 12 months down the track, the junior crew return from LWOP
6) Junior crew either return to their original position (which is now available because there is no SURPLUS), they get stood down because there is no useful work, or they get given CR / sent back on LWOP

It's really that simple. I've said it before and I will say it again. Seniority will not save you. Think wisely.
No. It’s not that simple. If at step 4, the more senior pilot says ‘instead of making me redundant (circa $60-70K) how about giving me LWOP and I’ll come back when you tell me you want me’. Company says ‘yeah, righto’. The end. Company saves it’s cash both ways (saving both CR and paying accrued annual leave) and the junior pilot on LWOP comes back flying the exact same time they would have if they’d taken the CR package.... except they haven’t accrued anything in the interim!
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 11:23
  #904 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
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QANTAS RECRUITMENT THREAD.
19th October, 2016, 17:06

Originally Posted by normanton View Post
I received my email around 5pm EDST on Tuesday.

3 days from then would be 5pm Friday, so that's when I'll be having mine done by.

3 days is very stiff, they obviously want a plain snap of everyone with very limited prior study.
I wondered why you had become so outspoken normanton. 47 posts until February this year. 389 since then covering the LH vote and now this. You're not in it for the good of the pilot body, you're in it for yourself.

There will be some very junior people on here (like yourself) who in these horrible times will unfortunately believe what you write, thinking you are something that you're not, and are looking out for them.

Post the all-knowing knowledge that you think you possess about the Award and it's legal aspects on Qrewroom. I note you haven't. So not only are you selfish, you're gutless.

Last edited by mmmbop; 17th Jul 2020 at 11:34.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 11:43
  #905 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by normanton View Post
Where have I once said that AIPA would win a case against the company? I actually don't think they will win the case for the exact reasons you have described.

It's also precisely why bypassing junior crew for redundancy wont be able to be challenged either. For one its in the EBA, but let me provide a timeline:

1) Junior crew takes LWOP to avoid CR
2) Company announces CR
3) Company announces CR for pilots above junior crew on LWOP
4) More senior crew are made redundant because the position is a SURPLUS, and isn't needed to be done by anyone
5) Fast forward 12 months down the track, the junior crew return from LWOP
6) Junior crew either return to their original position (which is now available because there is no SURPLUS), they get stood down because there is no useful work, or they get given CR / sent back on LWOP

It's really that simple. I've said it before and I will say it again. Seniority will not save you. Think wisely.
your self assured FUD campaign here is ridiculous.

your point 6 contradicts your whole premise and highlights why its just a fear campaign to cut leave, at this stage. What makes you think they wouldn't offer more LWOP (like in your point 6) prior to CR, once VR is locked and we know where we stand.
if, after lwop and VR, they wish to CR, why not then drop the number required LWOP and let them go for free instead of paying them out. Makes no sense.

hook.line. sinker
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 11:45
  #906 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Actually normanton on second thoughts you should take LWOP and encourage as many other junior folk to do the same. Like Keg says the more of you that do that then the less number of positions can be made redundant in your absence.
If the company thinks they have to make 300 S/O positions redundant then if there are 400 S/O on LWOP problem solved. How they can make S/O's on SU CR given that they have more S/O's on LWOP than they have surplus is beyond me.


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Old 17th Jul 2020, 11:48
  #907 (permalink)  
 
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Imagine being on a flight deck with Normanton and Telfer...wowee absolute flogs.

Lets hope there are two CR's made...how these twits get through has me stumped!!

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Old 17th Jul 2020, 11:50
  #908 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Well said mmmbop. I've received a few texts today with photos of their posts and a few choice words attached. I can't imagine being brand, brand new and posting such arrogant stuff when you've been around for a second. Had a go at me regarding credibility but it's on show in spades here.

I said it a few days ago but here we go again - do whatever you want. But don't do it thinking you're going to jump someone in the next few years and certainly don't do the ring-around trying to convince people (that are supposed to be your mates) of what you've simply made up with zero relevant information and completely against AIPA's stance of just a few hours ago. Again, I'm no fan of (the current) union but considering they've folded on nearly every fight over the last year or so, do you think they've had a change of heart overnight and gone rogue?

The timeline you've made up (or worse, believed TLS) is completely wrong and doesn't exist anywhere. They must reduce any and all CRs by the use of LWOP and other efficiencies like part-time or EBA changes (I'm paraphrasing); but you've jumped straight to concessions and LWOP. It doesn't work that way. If this goes down the path that TLS is advocating (while admitting that they'd never even thought of it until a handful of SOs emailed them offering to go on LWOP so others ahead of them would be made redundant) then we might as well just rip the relevant pages out of the EBA. Redundancies are complex by design - you/we need to keep it that way. If you make it simple then you're not doing yourself a favour - but your manager will be very, very happy.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 12:22
  #909 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 560
You boys be careful, LWOP with no end date is just redundancy without a need to pay you.

An EBA is not worth much in these unprecedented times.

Last edited by Xeptu; 17th Jul 2020 at 12:26. Reason: Extended
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 12:30
  #910 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Originally Posted by Blueskymine View Post
Someone needs to give you a cuddle Telfar. I mean seriously. Thatís some of the most epic doomsday, empty glass, pessimistic, negative nelly tripe Iíve ever read.
If youíre actually a pilot I reckon you should get onto pan and talk it over before you convince yourself that youíre actually right!
If QF have to CR back to 2000 thatíll be all of the short haul FOS and most of the SOs gone.

You mean like Air NZ just did?
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 12:42
  #911 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Originally Posted by Fujiroll76 View Post
Imagine being on a flight deck with Normanton and Telfer...wowee absolute flogs.

Lets hope there are two CR's made...how these twits get through has me stumped!!
pretty harsh wishing CR on someone, no matter what your disagreements are
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 12:54
  #912 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Originally Posted by ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE View Post
pretty harsh wishing CR on someone, no matter what your disagreements are
Yep, I donít want any one to receive a CR. What a sh!t feeling thatíd be...
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 13:02
  #913 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Originally Posted by mmmbop View Post
QANTAS RECRUITMENT THREAD.
19th October, 2016, 17:06



I wondered why you had become so outspoken normanton. 47 posts until February this year. 389 since then covering the LH vote and now this. You're not in it for the good of the pilot body, you're in it for yourself.

There will be some very junior people on here (like yourself) who in these horrible times will unfortunately believe what you write, thinking you are something that you're not, and are looking out for them.

Post the all-knowing knowledge that you think you possess about the Award and it's legal aspects on Qrewroom. I note you haven't. So not only are you selfish, you're gutless.
How the **** is me discussing a recruitment timeline selfish?

Desperate for anything to try and use against me because you can't argue valid points.

Disgraceful.

Originally Posted by ConfigFull View Post
Well said mmmbop. I've received a few texts today with photos of their posts and a few choice words attached. I can't imagine being brand, brand new and posting such arrogant stuff when you've been around for a second. Had a go at me regarding credibility but it's on show in spades here.
Or maybe for once in your career someone junior to you has thrown you a hard dose of reality and you can't take it. Seniority seniority seniority. Yet as soon as the company challengers that in compliance with the EBA you shit your pants.

Originally Posted by Keg View Post
No. It’s not that simple. If at step 4, the more senior pilot says ‘instead of making me redundant (circa $60-70K) how about giving me LWOP and I’ll come back when you tell me you want me’. Company says ‘yeah, righto’. The end. Company saves it’s cash both ways (saving both CR and paying accrued annual leave) and the junior pilot on LWOP comes back flying the exact same time they would have if they’d taken the CR package.... except they haven’t accrued anything in the interim!
Keg, I disagree because as mentioned many times by Tino, LWOP numbers will have no affect on the VR/CR numbers (190) required.

Last edited by normanton; 17th Jul 2020 at 13:16.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 13:14
  #914 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 19
Itís pretty sad to see how quickly pilots turn on each other.

How about everyone has a cup of tea, takes a bex and has a lie down..
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 13:20
  #915 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 560
We are talking about a company that is facing a 50% reduction in size in a market that is not expected to be profitable for at least the next two years. Have I got that right and what are we to do with the excess staff.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 13:29
  #916 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Originally Posted by normanton View Post
Keg, I disagree because as mentioned many times by Tino, LWOP numbers will have no affect on the VR/CR numbers (190) required.
Why the rush to get LWOP locked away on 07 Aug, before the VR and ER results are known?

Something isnít right.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 13:44
  #917 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by ruprecht View Post
Why the rush to get LWOP locked away on 07 Aug, before the VR and ER results are known?

Something isnít right.
absolutely
its a con job
normanton has bought into the amway and selling furiously to not be alone
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 13:47
  #918 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Posts: 1
Seniority seniority seniority. Yet as soon as the company challengers that in compliance with the EBA you shit your pants.
Does that happen after you've p*ssed yourself out of fear by signing away the next 1/2/3+ years? All decided before the JobKeeper review, before the VR close, before any subsequent CR target, before early retirement, before short-term EBA changes? Read your own contract!

I have no idea what you're trying to say with "...as soon as the company challengers (sic) that in compliance with the EBA...". How do you challenge something that already complies?





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Old 17th Jul 2020, 13:47
  #919 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
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Posts: 13
The company has said again and again that they donít to do CR and I actually believe them. Wana know why? Because itís expensive. Not only do they have to cough up the CR payment, they have to pay out your leave balances and give you the required notice period all of which burns cash which they are doing everything they can to avoid. Itís why theyíre pushing the LWOP card so hard, because it costs nothing.

Im in the bottom 200 numbers so I am firmly in the danger zone. If it comes to it, Iíll go on LWOP as well to avoid redundancy but Iíll be damned if I offer it up to them before they release the VR numbers. There are 2 main reasons for this...

Any future job keeper scheme may exclude people on LWOP. I desperately need that money if I can get it. Interestingly, someone on the webinar actually said they have spoken to the ATO twice and they told him that anyone on LWOP should not be currently getting jobkeeper. Even if thatís not the case, the government has consistently said they are planning on tightening the future eligibility of jobkeeper, so watch this space.

Second, at the end of the SO webinar, Doug Alley even conceded that they would probably have to revisit LWOP after the 7th of August deadline in the event that they were forced to run a CR program. And why wouldnít they? Like I said, CR is expensive LWOP isnít. If it comes to it, surely they will continue to work their way up the list offering LWOP as required knowing people will likely take it over redundancy, hence saving the company money.

The company are not trying to arbitrarily axe X number of pilots. They are trying to manage a pilot surplus through the CHEAPEST means possible. The company have said it many times that LWOP is the cheapest and most preferred option (VR/early Retirement Packages for older pilots are a different proposition for a variety of reason I wonít bother listing). If you think that taking LWOP now is some cunning move because the company will definitely CR the bloke above you, then youíre not thinking it through. You might return to work a couple of months earlier than me if I go on LWOP in a few months from now but you might miss out on months of jobkeeper and I might never have to go on LWOP at all.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 13:57
  #920 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Well said, Overspeed. Prepare for the incoming from the amateurs...
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