QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 37
Posts: 484
Originally Posted by tenretni
normanton
Mate AIPA can challenge a possible LH CR all they like. What you don't understand, is that a genuine redundancy as defined by Fair Work is when a persons job doesn't need to be done by ANYONE. So if the redundant jobs are LH jobs then that is where the CR's will be made if at all. AIPA can't force the company to apply CR across the board simply because the company cannot legally do that . All AIPA can do is ask for a RIN and maybe more VR's to be offered across the pilot group and not just LH.
In so far as your anticipated LWOP get out of gaol card is concerned all I can say is best of luck.
Mate AIPA can challenge a possible LH CR all they like. What you don't understand, is that a genuine redundancy as defined by Fair Work is when a persons job doesn't need to be done by ANYONE. So if the redundant jobs are LH jobs then that is where the CR's will be made if at all. AIPA can't force the company to apply CR across the board simply because the company cannot legally do that . All AIPA can do is ask for a RIN and maybe more VR's to be offered across the pilot group and not just LH.
In so far as your anticipated LWOP get out of gaol card is concerned all I can say is best of luck.
It's also precisely why bypassing junior crew for redundancy wont be able to be challenged either. For one its in the EBA, but let me provide a timeline:
1) Junior crew takes LWOP to avoid CR
2) Company announces CR
3) Company announces CR for pilots above junior crew on LWOP
4) More senior crew are made redundant because the position is a SURPLUS, and isn't needed to be done by anyone
5) Fast forward 12 months down the track, the junior crew return from LWOP
6) Junior crew either return to their original position (which is now available because there is no SURPLUS), they get stood down because there is no useful work, or they get given CR / sent back on LWOP
It's really that simple. I've said it before and I will say it again. Seniority will not save you. Think wisely.
Nunc est bibendum
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,367
Originally Posted by Blueskymine
Basically you can’t move someone out of a role and fill it with someone else, and make the former redundant. Which is why as much as we don’t like it. Shorthaul is safe.
Originally Posted by Blueskymine
...do you think Qantas is going to spend 2 years retraining all the long haul guys to Shorthaul? By the time they’re all typed and checked out, long haul will be back.
Neither of your scenarios should be perceived as protecting a SH pilot from CR.
There are multiple ways this can all go down. Qantas has articulated it’s preferred route of people talking LWOP to avoid CR. That is just the first of a variety of different options that Qantas may pursue.
By taking LWOP you’re hoping that someone senior to you will be CR’d and you’ll beat them back to work. Again, I point out that if enough people take LWOP then NO ONE needs to be made redundant and you’re likely to come back to work in seniority anyway. IE you’ll be out of the company (no accrual of years of service for staff travel, long service leave trips, etc) for the exact length of time you would have been CR’d anyway.
I’m hopeful after some discussions I had today that the time line issue will be better resolved in the next week or so and S/Os will be able to make a more informed decision post the VR EOIs becoming binding.
Nunc est bibendum
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5,367
Originally Posted by normanton
1) Junior crew takes LWOP to avoid CR
2) Company announces CR
3) Company announces CR for pilots above junior crew on LWOP
4) More senior crew are made redundant because the position is a SURPLUS, and isn't needed to be done by anyone
5) Fast forward 12 months down the track, the junior crew return from LWOP
6) Junior crew either return to their original position (which is now available because there is no SURPLUS), they get stood down because there is no useful work, or they get given CR / sent back on LWOP
It's really that simple. I've said it before and I will say it again. Seniority will not save you. Think wisely.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Best Place!
Posts: 202
QANTAS RECRUITMENT THREAD.
19th October, 2016, 17:06
I wondered why you had become so outspoken normanton. 47 posts until February this year. 389 since then covering the LH vote and now this. You're not in it for the good of the pilot body, you're in it for yourself.
There will be some very junior people on here (like yourself) who in these horrible times will unfortunately believe what you write, thinking you are something that you're not, and are looking out for them.
Post the all-knowing knowledge that you think you possess about the Award and it's legal aspects on Qrewroom. I note you haven't. So not only are you selfish, you're gutless.
19th October, 2016, 17:06
Originally Posted by normanton
I received my email around 5pm EDST on Tuesday.
3 days from then would be 5pm Friday, so that's when I'll be having mine done by.
3 days is very stiff, they obviously want a plain snap of everyone with very limited prior study.
3 days from then would be 5pm Friday, so that's when I'll be having mine done by.
3 days is very stiff, they obviously want a plain snap of everyone with very limited prior study.
There will be some very junior people on here (like yourself) who in these horrible times will unfortunately believe what you write, thinking you are something that you're not, and are looking out for them.
Post the all-knowing knowledge that you think you possess about the Award and it's legal aspects on Qrewroom. I note you haven't. So not only are you selfish, you're gutless.
Last edited by mmmbop; 17th Jul 2020 at 11:34.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sincity
Posts: 1,099
Originally Posted by normanton
Where have I once said that AIPA would win a case against the company? I actually don't think they will win the case for the exact reasons you have described.
It's also precisely why bypassing junior crew for redundancy wont be able to be challenged either. For one its in the EBA, but let me provide a timeline:
1) Junior crew takes LWOP to avoid CR
2) Company announces CR
3) Company announces CR for pilots above junior crew on LWOP
4) More senior crew are made redundant because the position is a SURPLUS, and isn't needed to be done by anyone
5) Fast forward 12 months down the track, the junior crew return from LWOP
6) Junior crew either return to their original position (which is now available because there is no SURPLUS), they get stood down because there is no useful work, or they get given CR / sent back on LWOP
It's really that simple. I've said it before and I will say it again. Seniority will not save you. Think wisely.
It's also precisely why bypassing junior crew for redundancy wont be able to be challenged either. For one its in the EBA, but let me provide a timeline:
1) Junior crew takes LWOP to avoid CR
2) Company announces CR
3) Company announces CR for pilots above junior crew on LWOP
4) More senior crew are made redundant because the position is a SURPLUS, and isn't needed to be done by anyone
5) Fast forward 12 months down the track, the junior crew return from LWOP
6) Junior crew either return to their original position (which is now available because there is no SURPLUS), they get stood down because there is no useful work, or they get given CR / sent back on LWOP
It's really that simple. I've said it before and I will say it again. Seniority will not save you. Think wisely.
your point 6 contradicts your whole premise and highlights why its just a fear campaign to cut leave, at this stage. What makes you think they wouldn't offer more LWOP (like in your point 6) prior to CR, once VR is locked and we know where we stand.
if, after lwop and VR, they wish to CR, why not then drop the number required LWOP and let them go for free instead of paying them out. Makes no sense.
hook.line. sinker
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 62
Actually normanton on second thoughts you should take LWOP and encourage as many other junior folk to do the same. Like Keg says the more of you that do that then the less number of positions can be made redundant in your absence.
If the company thinks they have to make 300 S/O positions redundant then if there are 400 S/O on LWOP problem solved. How they can make S/O's on SU CR given that they have more S/O's on LWOP than they have surplus is beyond me.
If the company thinks they have to make 300 S/O positions redundant then if there are 400 S/O on LWOP problem solved. How they can make S/O's on SU CR given that they have more S/O's on LWOP than they have surplus is beyond me.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1
Well said mmmbop. I've received a few texts today with photos of their posts and a few choice words attached. I can't imagine being brand, brand new and posting such arrogant stuff when you've been around for a second. Had a go at me regarding credibility but it's on show in spades here.
I said it a few days ago but here we go again - do whatever you want. But don't do it thinking you're going to jump someone in the next few years and certainly don't do the ring-around trying to convince people (that are supposed to be your mates) of what you've simply made up with zero relevant information and completely against AIPA's stance of just a few hours ago. Again, I'm no fan of (the current) union but considering they've folded on nearly every fight over the last year or so, do you think they've had a change of heart overnight and gone rogue?
The timeline you've made up (or worse, believed TLS) is completely wrong and doesn't exist anywhere. They must reduce any and all CRs by the use of LWOP and other efficiencies like part-time or EBA changes (I'm paraphrasing); but you've jumped straight to concessions and LWOP. It doesn't work that way. If this goes down the path that TLS is advocating (while admitting that they'd never even thought of it until a handful of SOs emailed them offering to go on LWOP so others ahead of them would be made redundant) then we might as well just rip the relevant pages out of the EBA. Redundancies are complex by design - you/we need to keep it that way. If you make it simple then you're not doing yourself a favour - but your manager will be very, very happy.
I said it a few days ago but here we go again - do whatever you want. But don't do it thinking you're going to jump someone in the next few years and certainly don't do the ring-around trying to convince people (that are supposed to be your mates) of what you've simply made up with zero relevant information and completely against AIPA's stance of just a few hours ago. Again, I'm no fan of (the current) union but considering they've folded on nearly every fight over the last year or so, do you think they've had a change of heart overnight and gone rogue?
The timeline you've made up (or worse, believed TLS) is completely wrong and doesn't exist anywhere. They must reduce any and all CRs by the use of LWOP and other efficiencies like part-time or EBA changes (I'm paraphrasing); but you've jumped straight to concessions and LWOP. It doesn't work that way. If this goes down the path that TLS is advocating (while admitting that they'd never even thought of it until a handful of SOs emailed them offering to go on LWOP so others ahead of them would be made redundant) then we might as well just rip the relevant pages out of the EBA. Redundancies are complex by design - you/we need to keep it that way. If you make it simple then you're not doing yourself a favour - but your manager will be very, very happy.
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 567
You boys be careful, LWOP with no end date is just redundancy without a need to pay you.
An EBA is not worth much in these unprecedented times.
An EBA is not worth much in these unprecedented times.
Last edited by Xeptu; 17th Jul 2020 at 12:26. Reason: Extended
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 310
Originally Posted by Blueskymine
Someone needs to give you a cuddle Telfar. I mean seriously. That’s some of the most epic doomsday, empty glass, pessimistic, negative nelly tripe I’ve ever read.
If you’re actually a pilot I reckon you should get onto pan and talk it over before you convince yourself that you’re actually right!
If QF have to CR back to 2000 that’ll be all of the short haul FOS and most of the SOs gone.
If you’re actually a pilot I reckon you should get onto pan and talk it over before you convince yourself that you’re actually right!
If QF have to CR back to 2000 that’ll be all of the short haul FOS and most of the SOs gone.
You mean like Air NZ just did?
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 348
Originally Posted by Fujiroll76
Imagine being on a flight deck with Normanton and Telfer...wowee absolute flogs.
Lets hope there are two CR's made...how these twits get through has me stumped!!
Lets hope there are two CR's made...how these twits get through has me stumped!!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 37
Posts: 484
Originally Posted by mmmbop
QANTAS RECRUITMENT THREAD.
19th October, 2016, 17:06
I wondered why you had become so outspoken normanton. 47 posts until February this year. 389 since then covering the LH vote and now this. You're not in it for the good of the pilot body, you're in it for yourself.
There will be some very junior people on here (like yourself) who in these horrible times will unfortunately believe what you write, thinking you are something that you're not, and are looking out for them.
Post the all-knowing knowledge that you think you possess about the Award and it's legal aspects on Qrewroom. I note you haven't. So not only are you selfish, you're gutless.
19th October, 2016, 17:06
I wondered why you had become so outspoken normanton. 47 posts until February this year. 389 since then covering the LH vote and now this. You're not in it for the good of the pilot body, you're in it for yourself.
There will be some very junior people on here (like yourself) who in these horrible times will unfortunately believe what you write, thinking you are something that you're not, and are looking out for them.
Post the all-knowing knowledge that you think you possess about the Award and it's legal aspects on Qrewroom. I note you haven't. So not only are you selfish, you're gutless.
Desperate for anything to try and use against me because you can't argue valid points.
Disgraceful.
Originally Posted by ConfigFull
Well said mmmbop. I've received a few texts today with photos of their posts and a few choice words attached. I can't imagine being brand, brand new and posting such arrogant stuff when you've been around for a second. Had a go at me regarding credibility but it's on show in spades here.
Originally Posted by Keg
No. It’s not that simple. If at step 4, the more senior pilot says ‘instead of making me redundant (circa $60-70K) how about giving me LWOP and I’ll come back when you tell me you want me’. Company says ‘yeah, righto’. The end. Company saves it’s cash both ways (saving both CR and paying accrued annual leave) and the junior pilot on LWOP comes back flying the exact same time they would have if they’d taken the CR package.... except they haven’t accrued anything in the interim!
Last edited by normanton; 17th Jul 2020 at 13:16.
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: The Swan Downunder
Posts: 567
We are talking about a company that is facing a 50% reduction in size in a market that is not expected to be profitable for at least the next two years. Have I got that right and what are we to do with the excess staff.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 476
Originally Posted by normanton
Keg, I disagree because as mentioned many times by Tino, LWOP numbers will have no affect on the VR/CR numbers (190) required.
Something isn’t right.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sincity
Posts: 1,099
Originally Posted by ruprecht
Why the rush to get LWOP locked away on 07 Aug, before the VR and ER results are known?
Something isn’t right.
Something isn’t right.
its a con job
normanton has bought into the amway and selling furiously to not be alone
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1
Seniority seniority seniority. Yet as soon as the company challengers that in compliance with the EBA you shit your pants.
I have no idea what you're trying to say with "...as soon as the company challengers (sic) that in compliance with the EBA...". How do you challenge something that already complies?
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 13
The company has said again and again that they don’t to do CR and I actually believe them. Wana know why? Because it’s expensive. Not only do they have to cough up the CR payment, they have to pay out your leave balances and give you the required notice period all of which burns cash which they are doing everything they can to avoid. It’s why they’re pushing the LWOP card so hard, because it costs nothing.
Im in the bottom 200 numbers so I am firmly in the danger zone. If it comes to it, I’ll go on LWOP as well to avoid redundancy but I’ll be damned if I offer it up to them before they release the VR numbers. There are 2 main reasons for this...
Any future job keeper scheme may exclude people on LWOP. I desperately need that money if I can get it. Interestingly, someone on the webinar actually said they have spoken to the ATO twice and they told him that anyone on LWOP should not be currently getting jobkeeper. Even if that’s not the case, the government has consistently said they are planning on tightening the future eligibility of jobkeeper, so watch this space.
Second, at the end of the SO webinar, Doug Alley even conceded that they would probably have to revisit LWOP after the 7th of August deadline in the event that they were forced to run a CR program. And why wouldn’t they? Like I said, CR is expensive LWOP isn’t. If it comes to it, surely they will continue to work their way up the list offering LWOP as required knowing people will likely take it over redundancy, hence saving the company money.
The company are not trying to arbitrarily axe X number of pilots. They are trying to manage a pilot surplus through the CHEAPEST means possible. The company have said it many times that LWOP is the cheapest and most preferred option (VR/early Retirement Packages for older pilots are a different proposition for a variety of reason I won’t bother listing). If you think that taking LWOP now is some cunning move because the company will definitely CR the bloke above you, then you’re not thinking it through. You might return to work a couple of months earlier than me if I go on LWOP in a few months from now but you might miss out on months of jobkeeper and I might never have to go on LWOP at all.
Im in the bottom 200 numbers so I am firmly in the danger zone. If it comes to it, I’ll go on LWOP as well to avoid redundancy but I’ll be damned if I offer it up to them before they release the VR numbers. There are 2 main reasons for this...
Any future job keeper scheme may exclude people on LWOP. I desperately need that money if I can get it. Interestingly, someone on the webinar actually said they have spoken to the ATO twice and they told him that anyone on LWOP should not be currently getting jobkeeper. Even if that’s not the case, the government has consistently said they are planning on tightening the future eligibility of jobkeeper, so watch this space.
Second, at the end of the SO webinar, Doug Alley even conceded that they would probably have to revisit LWOP after the 7th of August deadline in the event that they were forced to run a CR program. And why wouldn’t they? Like I said, CR is expensive LWOP isn’t. If it comes to it, surely they will continue to work their way up the list offering LWOP as required knowing people will likely take it over redundancy, hence saving the company money.
The company are not trying to arbitrarily axe X number of pilots. They are trying to manage a pilot surplus through the CHEAPEST means possible. The company have said it many times that LWOP is the cheapest and most preferred option (VR/early Retirement Packages for older pilots are a different proposition for a variety of reason I won’t bother listing). If you think that taking LWOP now is some cunning move because the company will definitely CR the bloke above you, then you’re not thinking it through. You might return to work a couple of months earlier than me if I go on LWOP in a few months from now but you might miss out on months of jobkeeper and I might never have to go on LWOP at all.
