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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 17th Jul 2020, 04:24
  #881 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Originally Posted by common cents View Post
So letís say for arguments sake that 50 S/O positions become redundant. And letís say that the pilots who held those positions are all on LWOP.
The company bypasses them and retrenches the next 50 in seniority. The LWOP pilots take those jobs. The 50 who were let go , were let go from positions that were not redundant. Iíd say they were unfairly dismissed.
For one, they wonít all come back from LWOP at once. Itíll be staggered. If there is no position to come back to, they could be stood down or CRd themselves.

But as the positions become available again, youíd want to be on LWOP returning and not on the retrenchment list. One you work for the company and one you donít.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 04:30
  #882 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by stillcallozhome View Post
Most of that is correct. The only thing that was said contrary to what you just wrote is that if the junior SO that is on 12 months lwop opts to extend their lwop as the company have stated there will be CR at the, for arguments sake, 13 month point, that pilot will not be bypassed for CR. Tino doubled down and said that junior pilot is only covered by the discretionary bypass, at this stage, for the period of their initial lwop period applied for prior to August 7th.

Therefore, the only way the junior pilot could avoid CR at that 13 month mark we are speaking about, would be to apply for more than 13 months lwop before August 7th. Eg. lwop for 2 years applied for prior to August 7th.

Itís a disgusting thing theyíre doing but as it states in the eba, bypass is at their discretion. Theyíre drawing a line by using their discretion to bypass. Appalling.
Yes that is correct. If you had work and could secure yourself financially, the smart thing to do would be to take LWOP for a period that should cover this COVID scenario till itís well and truely played out. Looking ahead thats probably at least 3 years. Fun times.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 04:57
  #883 (permalink)  
 
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So little Johnny who's been a good chap and has been on LWOP, comes back from leave one day, and taps his senior mate on the shoulder.
He says G'day there Charlie move over I'm taking your position. Uncle Q smiles as he hands Charlie his CR notice. Charlie jumps up in a fit of rage, and says my job is being filled by another employee. Uncle Q says that's right you should have listened and gone on LWOP.
Mr Fairwork Ombudsman comes along and asks what? Tell me uncle Q was this so called redundant position filled by another? Why yes . Then tell me how is it that Charlies job was redundant when it had to be filled by another? Uncle Q ponders the question and says I'm not sure but I acted within the EBA. Then asks why? have I dismissed Charlie unfairly?
Charlie jumps with joy as he now takes his generous CR package and looks forward to his compensation package.
In the meantime somewhere in a far off galaxy........................
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 05:02
  #884 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tenretni View Post
So little Johnny who's been a good chap and has been on LWOP, comes back from leave one day, and taps his senior mate on the shoulder.
He says G'day there Charlie move over I'm taking your position. Uncle Q smiles as he hands Charlie his CR notice. Charlie jumps up in a fit of rage, and says my job is being filled by another employee. Uncle Q says that's right you should have listened and gone on LWOP.
Mr Fairwork Ombudsman comes along and asks what? Tell me uncle Q was this so called redundant position filled by another? Why yes . Then tell me how is it that Charlies job was redundant when it had to be filled by another? Uncle Q ponders the question and says I'm not sure but I acted within the EBA. Then asks why have I dismissed Charlie unfairly.
Charlie jumps with joy as he now takes his generous CR package and looks forward to his compensation package.
In the meantime somewhere in a far off galaxy........................
Did you post from somewhere in a far off galaxy?

Nope doesnít work like that at all. I suggest you read more posts above and or listen to some webinars.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 05:23
  #885 (permalink)  
 
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Of course they'll say that on their koolaid dispensary/webinar

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Old 17th Jul 2020, 06:00
  #886 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Australia
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Norm, you hit the nail on the head in #903, it IS their train set indeed and this time around they will do as they please and nothing will stop them, not AIPA not ScoMo not the tea lady!!
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 06:33
  #887 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Don Diego View Post
Norm, you hit the nail on the head in #903, it IS their train set indeed and this time around they will do as they please and nothing will stop them, not AIPA not ScoMo not the tea lady!!
You are assured a job again when placed on the redundancy list if that future job will operate under your current award. Donít be surprised to see talk of Tinoís new outsourced international operation come again. There will be new contracts offered for the new international ops if and when that starts up again. Take LWOP. Thatís a leg in the door in case this scenario plays out which I think it will to some degree.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 06:33
  #888 (permalink)  
 
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The latest email from AIPA suggests that if it moves to CR, itíll be a long drawn out and expensive process.

The interesting part that will cause AIPA to lose its case is it refers to the LHEA for CR. The LHEA does not cover SHEA pilots. So provisions from the LHEA cannot be used to displace SH. Along with the FWA. Qantas would have done their homework and they donít usually lose these types of disputes.

If it went down that path and AIPA became hell bent on putting a gun to Shorthaul so that longhaul has somewhere to go, there would be a lot of SH pilots looking for alternative representation.

Itís a mess and I donít think any Qantas pilot has the stomach for it. Well maybe a few in the íroomí that seem to want to watch it burn.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 06:43
  #889 (permalink)  
 
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I was about to ask if any of the panic merchants had read the AIPA email (great email, by the way) - but it appears the usual suspects have just seen what they wanted to see.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 06:47
  #890 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
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There’s nothing we didn’t already know in the email regarding CR. A challenge would of course be expected. As would the loss of SH members.

i thought the info about LWOP and the process involved was well written, and I hope QF take this on board to assist in people’s decision making. It is blatantly obvious that people should know the results of thenVR/ER process before committing to a course of action, best of luck everyone.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 06:49
  #891 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ConfigFull View Post
I was about to ask if any of the panic merchants had read the AIPA email (great email, by the way) - but it appears the usual suspects have just seen what they wanted to see.
Yes. AIPA will challenge CR if the company try's LH CR only (as expected).

The company can bypass people on LWOP for CR (as expected).

Originally Posted by Don Diego View Post
Norm, you hit the nail on the head in #903, it IS their train set indeed and this time around they will do as they please and nothing will stop them, not AIPA not ScoMo not the tea lady!!
Yup. Best to get your ducks all lined up while you still can.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 07:44
  #892 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
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I and many others are looking forward to you being made redundant Normanton. Hopefully then you will leave this forum to pilots.....
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 07:55
  #893 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Guys back in late March when a significant portion of you were complaining & whining about the Project Sunrise Contract I said this


Guys the high & mighty Project Sunrise was something for pre global pandemic days

Who could forget the epic photos of QF leaders landing in Honolulu with loud shirts after indulging in a beverage or two
, or was this a delivery flight of the "game changer" . What a truly edifying happy snap that one was, how truly iconic it was for a brief moment. All so hard to remember , there was just so much big talk , so much chest beating & the hype (as well the delays in action & decisions) was just endless

Qantas is not going to order any aircraft for years & PS is dead

Stop dream time it won't help you rebuild your careers & for many that will mean finding either (a) a new airline or (b) a new career

Two years from now you will be doing incredibly well if you have two thirds of your international capacity back


You couldn't even see that international flying was gone for a long time & atm I would think getting 50% back within 4 years would be incredible

You need to accept how things are

1. International flying is gone for a long long time
2. AIPA isn't going to save you , they have lost every court challenge they initiated to QF this century (& there have been many)
3. There will be CRs at Qantas
4. It is unlikely SH will be isolated
5. Your more senior colleague urging you to "hang in there" just want a protective layer beneath them for when the inevitable CRs notices land
6. Any one who joined 2016 & doesn't take at least 3 to 5 years of lwop is either crazy or just not fussed so much
7. I think the CR will go back to early 2000s
8 See it as an opportunity to gain additional skills , quals , a long long surfing trip whatever works for you

The guys urging "hang in there" just an action replay of some of the more vocal domestic guys hanging around afap picket lines back in 1989
"hang in there mate" ; "the need us" , "its all a big bluff , they won't really bring in Americans" well the biggest talkers had already signed the new contracts.
It won't be any different here , some of biggest "just say no" guys will already have submitted their own application
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 08:00
  #894 (permalink)  
 
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^^

Probably one of the smartest posts Iíve seen so far.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 08:07
  #895 (permalink)  
 
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Someone needs to give you a cuddle Telfar. I mean seriously. Thatís some of the most epic doomsday, empty glass, pessimistic, negative nelly tripe Iíve ever read.
If youíre actually a pilot I reckon you should get onto pan and talk it over before you convince yourself that youíre actually right!
If QF have to CR back to 2000 thatíll be all of the short haul FOS and most of the SOs gone.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 08:14
  #896 (permalink)  
 
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All of your SOs are gone , likely many don't know that (unless they take insurance,lwop)

Well it seems I might have been on the money up to this point , but yes my friend I make many many mistakes every day of my life

I would have thought 50% by March 2024 was an optimistic view

Why don't you share then , where will QF international be 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 years post pandemic (March 2020 start date)

Kick off is June 2021 isn't it ? That's when you start at 0%
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 08:54
  #897 (permalink)  
 
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Ok Telfer, you really need to take a seat and think. Almost all of what you wrote was fear filled speculation without providing an objective assessment of the situation. Itís what we are meant to do as pilots, no?

Originally Posted by Telfer86 View Post
1. International flying is gone for a long long time
How long is long, long? Who knows. From what most estimates and company predictions say is that the 787 and 330 will be mostly on the ground until mid 21 and the 380 until mid 23. You have no evidence of any timeframe longer than that.

2. AIPA isn't going to save you , they have lost every court challenge they initiated to QF this century (& there have been many)
No one will require any ĒsavingĒ. The Fair Work Commission have said however theyíll be doing as much as they can to ensure businesses have flexibility to ensure they survive and remain profitable during this time, meaning any court actions will probably be in the companyís favour.

3. There will be CRs at Qantas
There are no forecast redundancies beyond the 190 announced, which, with the lack of flying, everyone believes that VR will take care of. Everyone else remains on stand down until a position is available, as management have said about 100 times.

4. It is unlikely SH will be isolated
Hereís the funny thing. You say AIPA isnít going to save you in court and they lose all cases in point 2 but itís AIPA who have the view that CR applies to everyone. Again no SH surplus for the entirety of the restructuring timeframe, no redundancy. The company will prevail there, especially with a business friendly FWC. Of course with VR taking care of the surplus wilt wonít come to that at all.

5. Your more senior colleague urging you to "hang in there" just want a protective layer beneath them for when the inevitable CRs notices land
Or itís more likely they have just been assessing the situation rationally and are offering common sense reasoning to their junior colleagues to avoid panic.

6. Any one who joined 2016 & doesn't take at least 3 to 5 years of lwop is either crazy or just not fussed so much
They arenít crazy or not fussed. Everyone will assess the situation, and there are some who will prefer the definite time period off of LWOP to allow them to plan for a few years rather than to be subject to rotating stand downs which will probably be in place as the 787 and 330 come back to the line. Or they may be ok with that therefore avoid LWOP.

7. I think the CR will go back to early 2000s
No way. Every 330 and 787 SO when those pilots will start to be required in a year, plus payouts to all of them some of whom are starting to accumulate a bit of time in the company.

8. See it as an opportunity to gain additional skills , quals , a long long surfing trip whatever works for you
Probably your only sensible point. I think a lot of people will look back on these 1-3 years depending on fleet and realise they got a chance to experience another chapter to their working life on their one time on this planet, rather than spend 100% of it in Aviation.


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Old 17th Jul 2020, 08:55
  #898 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
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The reason this all Bullsh!t?
If they do the VR and still have a genuine surplus then they should be doing another round of VR and if thatís not affordable then start cutting from the bottom up, regardless of LWOP, just as the EAís + IA intend. That bypass furphy is only there to get people off the books. Gun to the head- if you like. Just look at what American Airlines announced today. Bodies are going to get dropped everywhere.

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Old 17th Jul 2020, 09:47
  #899 (permalink)  
 
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normanton

Mate AIPA can challenge a possible LH CR all they like. What you don't understand, is that a genuine redundancy as defined by Fair Work is when a persons job doesn't need to be done by ANYONE. So if the redundant jobs are LH jobs then that is where the CR's will be made if at all. AIPA can't force the company to apply CR across the board simply because the company cannot legally do that . All AIPA can do is ask for a RIN and maybe more VR's to be offered across the pilot group and not just LH.

In so far as your anticipated LWOP get out of gaol card is concerned all I can say is best of luck.
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Old 17th Jul 2020, 10:05
  #900 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Blueskymine View Post
The latest email from AIPA suggests that if it moves to CR, it’ll be a long drawn out and expensive process.

The interesting part that will cause AIPA to lose its case is it refers to the LHEA for CR. The LHEA does not cover SHEA pilots. So provisions from the LHEA cannot be used to displace SH. Along with the FWA. Qantas would have done their homework and they don’t usually lose these types of disputes.
It's not about the LHEA not covering the SHEA, it's about the IA tying the awards and therefor the seniority lists together. Please take the time to read the awards and see how they are entwined.
FWA first responsibility is to protect the agreements negotiated between the employer and the employees, Fair works redundancy provisions are the minimum standard, negotiated outcomes are more binding and override those minimum standards.
If QF was to enter into Voluntary receivership then all bets are off in regards to all agreements. But if it gets to that there are bigger problems than just SH v LH and LWOP.

Last edited by OnceBitten; 17th Jul 2020 at 10:08. Reason: ++
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