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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

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QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages

Old 16th Jul 2020, 04:53
  #821 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sydney
Age: 38
Posts: 484
Originally Posted by KZ Kiwi View Post
So you think Aug 7 is a hard line in the sand for the remainder of this crisis? Itís take LWOP before Aug 7 because after that the company will start making CR as per the EA (with associated costs) with no second chance/offer for LWOP (which is cost zero for them)????

Geeze everyone better take it then because what if everyone else takes it.....donít want to be the only one left not on LWOP. Hang on......isnít that want Tino wants?
What you fail to understand is if the company says "we have a further surplus of xxx pilots". That's exactly that, a SURPLUS. LWOP will not save you. If it's a SURPLUS, it's a SURPLUS. The company needs to remove heads.

I suggest you listen to some webinars as it's been clearly explained multiple times how in the current situation LWOP will not affect the VR/CR numbers.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 05:35
  #822 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: In a house
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Originally Posted by normanton View Post
What you fail to understand is if the company says "we have a further surplus of xxx pilots". That's exactly that, a SURPLUS. LWOP will not save you. If it's a SURPLUS, it's a SURPLUS. The company needs to remove heads.

I suggest you listen to some webinars as it's been clearly explained multiple times how in the current situation LWOP will not affect the VR/CR numbers.
LWOP wonít affect the VR/CR numbers. Thatís true.

However if youíre on LWOP you will be passed over. If it looks like you may be in trouble when you come back, you can extend until such time as you can return.

You will also return before those who stuck around, got CRd and are on the retrenchment list awaiting a pineapple from the uni graduate A team in HR.

If you are reemployed after retrenchment you will return to your original seniority position. However if someone who was junior to you on LWOP returned and gained a higher category/promotion blocking you from upwards movement - your CR payment may be a pittance in the years of lost earnings. It would suck being senior to the FO that youíre now an SO too or worse - captain.

Iíd rather roll the dice and take LWOP.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 05:48
  #823 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Earth
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by normanton View Post
What you fail to understand is if the company says "we have a further surplus of xxx pilots". That's exactly that, a SURPLUS. LWOP will not save you. If it's a SURPLUS, it's a SURPLUS. The company needs to remove heads.

I suggest you listen to some webinars as it's been clearly explained multiple times how in the current situation LWOP will not affect the VR/CR numbers.
Ok. We are going round in circles. Iíve been in your position before post GFC and I know how fear and intimidation works by this company. Enjoy your LWOP and see you on the other side.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 06:07
  #824 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 311
So junior Pilot A takes LWOP for 12 months.

Not so junior Pilot B gets made CR and gets associated payout.

12 months comes around and guess what..flying is back...both Pilot A and Pilot B come back.

12 months comes around and guess what...no flying is back... Pilot A faces new choice LWOP or CR. Pilot B makes the yearly required contact to stay on ‘the list’.

9 months come round and the company can offer employment to Pilot A or Pilot B but not both. Pilot B gets the phone call.

It’s my humble opinion any desire to ‘play’ the system to your advantage is misguided. IF VR numbers were too low and the company wish to deal to a surplus, by all means take LWOP, but any perceived benefits are probably just that.

As others have pointed out VR/CR manages a surplus. LWOP does not. If I were faced with the current predicament, as I was previously, I would say Sit Tight! If things go south take your payment and get on with life. The phone will ring one day.

Also don’t forget the potential impact on Qantas red tail subsidiaries with Mainline CR
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 06:12
  #825 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 6
They know crew want a career and career progression.

Threaten to outsource flying in an EBA and crew will bend over backwards to prevent it.

Threaten CR and some will secure LWOP to protect their career.

Don’t take LWOP and you may be in the firing line, take it and QF ‘may’ use discretion to pass over you in the case of CR. Pit each pilot against each other, LH vs SH, senior vs junior, fleet against fleet. Do we have to suffer this crap again.

If you want LWOP because you’ve got something lined up, take it. Don’t take it because you feel threatened.

There will be sufficient VR and early retirement to avoid CR.

LWOP is not necessary to avoid CR at this stage. The discussion of it in such a misleading way is an attempt to reduce ‘stranded costs’.

Last edited by beautiful_butterfly; 16th Jul 2020 at 06:30.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 06:30
  #826 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: In a house
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Originally Posted by crosscutter View Post
So junior Pilot A takes LWOP for 12 months.

Not so junior Pilot B gets made CR and gets associated payout.

12 months comes around and guess what..flying is back...both Pilot A and Pilot B come back.

12 months comes around and guess what...no flying is back... Pilot A faces new choice LWOP or CR. Pilot B makes the yearly required contact to stay on Ďthe listí.

9 months come round and the company can offer employment to Pilot A or Pilot B but not both. Pilot B gets the phone call.

Itís my humble opinion any desire to Ďplayí the system to your advantage is misguided. IF VR numbers were too low and the company wish to deal to a surplus, by all means take LWOP, but any perceived benefits are probably just that.

As others have pointed out VR/CR manages a surplus. LWOP does not. If I were faced with the current predicament, as I was previously, I would say Sit Tight! If things go south take your payment and get on with life. The phone will ring one day.

Also donít forget the potential impact on Qantas red tail subsidiaries with Mainline CR
You missed one critical point.

ALL LWOP pilots will return before they start calling the retrenchment list. The retrenchment list is only activated once external recruitment begins again.

Thereís more pros to pilot A and more cons to pilot B.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 06:48
  #827 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Gladstone
Age: 44
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Originally Posted by crosscutter View Post
So junior Pilot A takes LWOP for 12 months.

Not so junior Pilot B gets made CR and gets associated payout.

12 months comes around and guess what..flying is back...both Pilot A and Pilot B come back.

12 months comes around and guess what...no flying is back... Pilot A faces new choice LWOP or CR. Pilot B makes the yearly required contact to stay on Ďthe listí.

9 months come round and the company can offer employment to Pilot A or Pilot B but not both. Pilot B gets the phone call.

Itís my humble opinion any desire to Ďplayí the system to your advantage is misguided. IF VR numbers were too low and the company wish to deal to a surplus, by all means take LWOP, but any perceived benefits are probably just that.

As others have pointed out VR/CR manages a surplus. LWOP does not. If I were faced with the current predicament, as I was previously, I would say Sit Tight! If things go south take your payment and get on with life. The phone will ring one day.

Also donít forget the potential impact on Qantas red tail subsidiaries with Mainline CR

Can you elaborate on your last sentence?

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Old 16th Jul 2020, 07:38
  #828 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 311
Originally Posted by Fujiroll76 View Post
Can you elaborate on your last sentence?
A Mainline CR, even in long haul, may create constraints for Network and Jetconnect to recruit. What about Qlink recruitment? If there was recruitment who might Ďthrough a fair and balanced recruitment processí get the gig? More questions than answers...but my gut says donít jump.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 07:54
  #829 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Weltschmerz-By-The-Sea, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 978
A word about culture for our recently ex-RAAF crew:

Years ago I was flying with an ex-RAAF pilot a couple of days after Geoff Dixon assured the F/Os that they would all be captains within five years. He was disgusted with me because I voiced my cynicism about that particular promise. That’s when I realised that he grew up working for superiors who had honour and integrity. So for those who listen to corporate managers, please understand that they are not playing by the same rules that you might think.

I don’t care either way if someone takes LWOP, but I don’t believe that leavers will be able to either leapfrog a senior or be certain of being ring-fenced from CR when the cost delta is so high. Money talks. BS walks.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 07:54
  #830 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Prison Island (WA)
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Originally Posted by beautiful_butterfly View Post
If you want LWOP because you’ve got something lined up, take it. Don’t take it because you feel threatened.

There will be sufficient VR and early retirement to avoid CR.
.
The most sensible thing I’ve read here so far. As Normanton pointed out on another thread, he/she has slid back into their old job. LWOP becomes an easy option then. The rest of us who have spent the last 15+ years flying jets with a Kangaroo on the tail aren’t so fortunate.

Pay me CR if you want and I will put the money and time towards a new qualification, or start a business so I never have to be held to ransom by pr1cks like TLS again!

Last edited by Transition Layer; 16th Jul 2020 at 08:51.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 07:54
  #831 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
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Originally Posted by Blueskymine View Post
You missed one critical point.

ALL LWOP pilots will return before they start calling the retrenchment list. The retrenchment list is only activated once external recruitment begins.
I think you are right and wrong..you’d be coming back at essentially the same time.

I still think no CR will be required.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 08:05
  #832 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: australia
Age: 71
Posts: 906
Sorry for my ignorance.
Why does a Pilot on LWOP get a bypass for retrenchment if there is a surplus of numbers ?
What ever happened to last on first off ?
Can somebody more erudite than I , point out the Legislation empowering Managements assertions reference this latest flogging .
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 08:07
  #833 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: centre of my universe
Posts: 289
Originally Posted by blow.n.gasket View Post
Sorry for my ignorance.
Why does a Pilot on LWOP get a bypass for retrenchment if there is a surplus of numbers ?
What ever happened to last on first off ?
Can somebody more erudite than I , point out the Legislation empowering Managements assertions reference this latest flogging .
they have bypass discretion and they are using it to hold everyone to ransom.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 08:55
  #834 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Prison Island (WA)
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Qantas asks pilots to go without leave to avoid forced redundancies
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 09:03
  #835 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: SE QLD
Posts: 255
Originally Posted by Blueskymine View Post
You missed one critical point.

ALL LWOP pilots will return before they start calling the retrenchment list. The retrenchment list is only activated once external recruitment begins again.

Thereís more pros to pilot A and more cons to pilot B.
Not true, pilots are called back in seniority order - whether from LWOP
or the retrenched list.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 09:12
  #836 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 298
LH EA 15.10.2 (b).
All there in black and white.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 09:13
  #837 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: OZ
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by ScepticalOptomist View Post
Not true, pilots are called back in seniority order - whether from LWOP
or the retrenched list.
Not true.
When on LWOP you are still employed by Qantas. They will call their employees back to work first. If you were made Compulsory Redundant sadly you are no longer employed and therefore will have to wait until they recruit externally. This was explained in a recent Webinar.

The ability to Bypass an individual from CR on LWOP Is detailed in the EA. The company "may" do this, they have now stated they "will". Another threat ? Who knows but they are playing a devious game as usual.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 09:29
  #838 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: sydney
Posts: 1,200
If as above you are correct then what happens if you take two years LWOP and they need pilots after one year who comes back first the pilot on CR or can the pilot on LWOP returning earlier than the LWOP that he took Instead of the more senior pilot who was compulsory made redundant? The bottom line is a Pandora’s box has been opened and like a royal commission do you want to go to FWA without knowing what the result will be.

Last edited by dragon man; 16th Jul 2020 at 09:40.
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 09:38
  #839 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: OZ
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Dragon man. If that scenario were to eventuate and they needed pilots back in 12 month's, then they would contact those on LWOP and ask them if they could or would like to return early. If they could not get sufficient numbers to do that and they needed more, then it is back to recruiting again starting with the Redundancy List.
it is a mess
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Old 16th Jul 2020, 09:58
  #840 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by OBNO View Post
Dragon man. If that scenario were to eventuate and they needed pilots back in 12 month's, then they would contact those on LWOP and ask them if they could or would like to return early. If they could not get sufficient numbers to do that and they needed more, then it is back to recruiting again starting with the Redundancy List.
it is a mess
I donít agree with you and we can go round and round in circles till FWA make a decision and neither of us knows what that will be. To further complicate matters pilots who turn 65 are not and IMO canít be forced to retire from Qantas. So, As there are no vacancies in SH are they A) redundant B) can they remain on stand down until there are SH vacancies, accruing leave entitlements and if in a defined benefit super scheme increased super or C) can they be forced to retire. Only FWA can tell us personally I favour B and if that was so it is a nightmare for Qantas.
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