QF Group possible Redundancy Numbers/Packages
We need to take our pilot hat off, and put on a company hat.
We need to take our pilot hat off, and put on a company hat. What would you do to reduce pilot costs to 0 while there is no flying?
Last edited by neville_nobody; 8th Jun 2020 at 05:49.
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Why don't you answer the question neville? Don't like the answer?
Thread Starter
There’s probably only 100-150 ish 747 pilots remaining anyway. From what I’m led to believe a lot of them were planning on retiring when the fleet retired so they were going anyway. Add to that the retirements that probably would’ve been occurring on other fleets in the next 12 months and that’ll sort out the remaining 747 numbers. Don’t forget the 150 pilots who won’t be recruited into mainline to replace those retiring 747 (and other) pilots over the next 12 months are sort of job losses in a way.
If there is a permanent reduction in any other fleets (not just shorter term stand downs) then there’ll be the need to talk of surpluses, but it doesn’t look like they’re proceeding on that path from anything which has been said at the moment.
If there is a permanent reduction in any other fleets (not just shorter term stand downs) then there’ll be the need to talk of surpluses, but it doesn’t look like they’re proceeding on that path from anything which has been said at the moment.
Yeah, I would have imagined any genuine surplus from the 747 would have been about that number (100-150, plus the same yet to be recruited to replace them, so roughly 300 in total). If 100 or so make the decision or some are offered some kind of VR, then provided we don’t have another catastrophe the numbers should be about right.
The twin engined fleets look look like being the way forward for a while, so you’d have to say they’d want those numbers to be maintained for a ramp up over the next 12 months or so.
That’d be a little bit of a relief to those on the bottom of the list anyway.
Finally some reason on here.
I’d be highly surprised if QF make ANY pilot CR. Maybe some early retirements and VR. A small RIN from the 747. That’s about the extent of it.
Once the borders open watch it take off quicker than anyone expected and life will go on.
Remember there’s 3 x new 787s waiting to be crewed and parked up. They’ll be busy soon.
I’d be highly surprised if QF make ANY pilot CR. Maybe some early retirements and VR. A small RIN from the 747. That’s about the extent of it.
Once the borders open watch it take off quicker than anyone expected and life will go on.
Remember there’s 3 x new 787s waiting to be crewed and parked up. They’ll be busy soon.
Whilst there are some close to 65/retirement on the 744, many Captains are younger (and senior) than/to me and I'm not yet 60.
At some point the three or four (down)training courses that result from each RIN'ed pilot or paying for additional F/Os and maybe even Captains not required in rank, will be a greater cost than a VR.
Compulsory redundancies off the bottom will not change that.
"We need to take our pilot hat off, and put on a company hat."
Normanton, some would suggest you hadn't removed your Company hat since the commencement of the EA10 discussion!
At some point the three or four (down)training courses that result from each RIN'ed pilot or paying for additional F/Os and maybe even Captains not required in rank, will be a greater cost than a VR.
Compulsory redundancies off the bottom will not change that.
"We need to take our pilot hat off, and put on a company hat."
Normanton, some would suggest you hadn't removed your Company hat since the commencement of the EA10 discussion!
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Because that is what Tino said in the webinar. That is the "flexibility" he is looking for. Doesn't mean I agree with it.
Ahh well I guess 80 odd % of pilots agreed with me enough to vote yes. Shall they all remove their company hat too?
Love it
Love it
You are still accruing sick leave / annual leave. Tino said he has that in his sights. Why don't you answer the question neville? Don't like the answer?
It is a bit of a long shot, but maybe they're getting desperate and running out of options.
Leaving Australia
If you are an Australian citizen or a permanent resident you cannot leave Australia due to COVID-19 restrictionsunless you have an exemption.
Let’s say pilots agreed to waive leave accrual whilst stood down...kicks the can down the road and saves 150 jobs just like that. Zero cost to the company whilst pilots do the lifting. Company win, pilots ‘do the right thing’. Sounds like continuation of EBA season.
lost leave should be repaid in 24months. Then it’s a non current liability.
lost leave should be repaid in 24months. Then it’s a non current liability.
Sure, they can look at other income sources but after September it would be reasonable to assume that some businesses will fail and the job-seeker market will grow.
For those holding out hope of the international flood gates opening the Federal government has just said no more funding for international flights and both Qantas and Virgin have canceled all international passengers flights. (Sydney Morning Herald Sunday)
Winter is still coming and I don’t see Aus or NZ opening up international borders to go back to square one other than to each other and maybe the Pacific islands. Once the VA outcome is better understood and how long jobseeker will last I think the HR surgeons will know just how deep to cut. They won’t care if they go to hard as there will be plenty out there willing to take any spots on offer. Remember only a few months ago the talk was about the ULH conditions and they won that before the virus.Even Holdor had to let go in the end.
Winter is still coming and I don’t see Aus or NZ opening up international borders to go back to square one other than to each other and maybe the Pacific islands. Once the VA outcome is better understood and how long jobseeker will last I think the HR surgeons will know just how deep to cut. They won’t care if they go to hard as there will be plenty out there willing to take any spots on offer. Remember only a few months ago the talk was about the ULH conditions and they won that before the virus.Even Holdor had to let go in the end.
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This is the advise we all need to listen to. This is going to suck for a long time to come. Find some other way to feed yourself and your family, and forget about returning to Qantas in the near future. If it gets better quick, that’s awesome, but I think we all know that’s not going to happen, at least not for LH. Qantas will do everything in their power to stop paying you anything, AL/LSL, redundancy, RIN, whatever, it’s a business and will do what it can. But remember, it’s not personal. You can take that to the bank.
Try telling that to the Pilots who have little or no leave left now and are living off Jobkeeper. At least when Jobkeeper ceases (possibly/probably) at the end of September they'll have another few weeks of base pay income and can rely on having a further week of base pay for every 60 days they're stood-down after that. Some of those Pilots are conceivably looking at another 12 to 18 months of stand-down.
Sure, they can look at other income sources but after September it would be reasonable to assume that some businesses will fail and the job-seeker market will grow.
Sure, they can look at other income sources but after September it would be reasonable to assume that some businesses will fail and the job-seeker market will grow.
That would probably be better than 1/8th of their base income (1 week per 60 days) in the form of leave.
As to what to do beyond that? Well that’ll have to be up to those stood down pilots themselves. Some are looking at temporarily re-skilling, looking at running their own small businesses, accepting positions of even unskilled labour if it’s available, modifying their lifestyle to suit.
Yes it’s a reduction in pay and lifestyle from what they were used to in the past. I don’t really have any words of encouragement beyond that. Nowhere in any society is there a job on a 747 Captain’s wage that you can easily walk into with no prior skills or experience.
If there is a word of encouragement, Aviation will return. The Boeing forecast was for 600,000 new pilots over the next 20 years, no doubt it’ll be decreased somewhat but it will still be a huge number. Developing economies are expanding and modernising, necessitating more aviation. The pandemic will subside, in a year or so (or even earlier if a second wave does not appear). Management will want an airline roughly as big as it was at the start of the year in 2022/23 I presume. It is good that pilots will be able to return back to their original positions on what are still good terms and conditions after that period of stand down, rather than being made redundant and having to find another long term job from scratch
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ex the SMH: Qantas and Virgin Australia suspend remaining international flights.....
Link/Reference here: https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp....html#comments
Extract here:
Rgds
S28- BE
Extract here:
Qantas and Virgin Australia suspend remaining international flights
Qantas and Virgin Australia suspend remaining international flights
By Patrick Hatch
June 8, 2020 — 3.45pm
Qantas and Virgin Australia have regrounded their remaining international passenger operations after government funding for the handful of overseas routes they were flying came to an end.
The Morrison government says it is reviewing whether it needs to fund further flights to get Australians home from abroad as some overseas airlines resume flying here.
Qantas and Virgin will again suspend their international passenger operations.
Under the government program, Qantas was flying a twice weekly London-Perth-Melbourne return service and a weekly Los Angeles-Melbourne service, the last of which landed on Monday morning.
Meanwhile Virgin - which is in voluntary administration seeking new owners - was flying a weekly Los Angeles-Brisbane service which ended Sunday.
Both airlines confirmed on Monday they had no further international passenger services scheduled following the end of the government scheme, with aircraft to be grounded and crews working the flights stood down.
A spokeswoman for the Deputy Prime Minister and Transport Minister Michael McCormack said the scheme with Qantas and Virgin was established to get Australians home as soon as possible amid the pandemic.
"The government is reviewing the program noting there are now alternative commercial flight options available from London and Los Angeles," she said.
The government also has previously arranged for ad hoc repatriation flights from Peru, Argentina, South Africa and India.
Government to extend financial backing for domestic flights
Qantas will continue to fly some international freight flights and said it was ready to fly any further repatriation flights for the government as needed.
A Qantas spokesman said the airline was "proud to have helped thousands of Australians return home as well as taking foreign nationals back in the other direction".
Over the weekend Mr McCormack announced the government will extend the underwriting over a minimum number of domestic and regional flights operated by Qantas, Virgin and Regional Express.
The end of Qantas and Virgin’s Los Angeles flights leaves United Airlines’ daily Sydney-San Francisco service as the only direct passenger air link between Australia and the United States.
Qatar Airways, Emirates and Etihad Airways have resumed regular flights connecting Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth to the UK, Europe, Middle East and Asia via their Gulf hubs, while Air New Zealand is operating some trans-Tasman flights and Cathay Pacific is flying to Hong Kong.
There is a $165m plan for Qantas and Virgin to resume domestic routes.
Under current border restrictions, only Australian citizens, residents and immediate family members can travel to Australia and must go into quarantine for 14 days on arrival.
Australians have been banned from leaving the the country since March 25 unless they receive an exemption because their travel relates to work combating the COVID-19 pandemic, is in an essential industry, is for medical treatment or on compassionate or humanitarian grounds.
Patrick Hatch
Business reporter at The Age and Sydney Morning Herald.
June 8, 2020 — 3.45pm
Qantas and Virgin Australia have regrounded their remaining international passenger operations after government funding for the handful of overseas routes they were flying came to an end.
The Morrison government says it is reviewing whether it needs to fund further flights to get Australians home from abroad as some overseas airlines resume flying here.
Qantas and Virgin will again suspend their international passenger operations.
Under the government program, Qantas was flying a twice weekly London-Perth-Melbourne return service and a weekly Los Angeles-Melbourne service, the last of which landed on Monday morning.
Meanwhile Virgin - which is in voluntary administration seeking new owners - was flying a weekly Los Angeles-Brisbane service which ended Sunday.
Both airlines confirmed on Monday they had no further international passenger services scheduled following the end of the government scheme, with aircraft to be grounded and crews working the flights stood down.
A spokeswoman for the Deputy Prime Minister and Transport Minister Michael McCormack said the scheme with Qantas and Virgin was established to get Australians home as soon as possible amid the pandemic.
"The government is reviewing the program noting there are now alternative commercial flight options available from London and Los Angeles," she said.
The government also has previously arranged for ad hoc repatriation flights from Peru, Argentina, South Africa and India.
Government to extend financial backing for domestic flights
Qantas will continue to fly some international freight flights and said it was ready to fly any further repatriation flights for the government as needed.
A Qantas spokesman said the airline was "proud to have helped thousands of Australians return home as well as taking foreign nationals back in the other direction".
Over the weekend Mr McCormack announced the government will extend the underwriting over a minimum number of domestic and regional flights operated by Qantas, Virgin and Regional Express.
The end of Qantas and Virgin’s Los Angeles flights leaves United Airlines’ daily Sydney-San Francisco service as the only direct passenger air link between Australia and the United States.
Qatar Airways, Emirates and Etihad Airways have resumed regular flights connecting Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth to the UK, Europe, Middle East and Asia via their Gulf hubs, while Air New Zealand is operating some trans-Tasman flights and Cathay Pacific is flying to Hong Kong.
There is a $165m plan for Qantas and Virgin to resume domestic routes.
Under current border restrictions, only Australian citizens, residents and immediate family members can travel to Australia and must go into quarantine for 14 days on arrival.
Australians have been banned from leaving the the country since March 25 unless they receive an exemption because their travel relates to work combating the COVID-19 pandemic, is in an essential industry, is for medical treatment or on compassionate or humanitarian grounds.
Patrick Hatch
Business reporter at The Age and Sydney Morning Herald.
S28- BE
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